Mouth/Bit Issues Leading to Negative Behaviors?

[gooselake]

Has anyone ever made the connection between a horse hanging his tongue out when ridden/mouth issues and other behavioral issues? I posted previously about purchasing a green pony from my old “trainers” (bad idea, but you live and learn) and it going downhill quickly-he’s now been moved to a new program with a trainer I feel more confident with. However, we noticed when ridden he often hangs his tongue out of his mouth, swirling it around. He opens his mouth some as well. He did this previously when I first bought him but my old trainer really had no solution except to tighten the bridle. New trainer noticed it right away and thinks we need to try different bits and find something more comfortable, clearly something is causing him discomfort-but I’m curious if this could be connected to other problematic behaviors he’s had and if there’s more to this?

Over the course of 6 months my pony exhibited 4 instances of what I can only describe as “panic attacks” when he would suddenly get very distressed and start scooting around-running a bit and then stopping, changing direction like he was trying to escape something. He has never bucked or reared. This is really the only negative behavior he’s ever shown but 3 of the times it happened within one week and I came off each time. Not fun. I had no idea where this was coming from and each time it was when I was riding on my own. We changed his bit from a loose ring to a full cheek because the bit was nearly sliding into his mouth at times and changed the saddle. No episodes for a while, but difficult to steer and still getting tongue over the bit occasionally. A few months later he was especially resistant one day and had the same episode. This was after switching him from the full cheek to a Boucher. I’m pretty clueless when it comes to bits and am trying to educate myself and am working with a professional who seems much more knowledgeable but before was just going with whatever previous program told me to do. Old trainers could be quite heavy handed and rode him almost exclusively on a very tight contact with a short neck. He’s now seems more comfortable when ridden and less resistant overall but still sticks his tongue out some. Do you think there could be any correlation between the mouth issues and the odd behavior? Do you think it’s more of a training issue from being ridden incorrectly previously and this would improve with time? Something wrong with his mouth? I’d love to find a solution for this pony and was curious if anyone has seen anything similar before.

[beowulf]

The mouth and its behaviors are a good indicator of a horse’s comfort, IME, and the more tension a horse has the more active their mouth and tongue tend to be.

In my experience, tongue issues like you describe tend to be connected to pain in the back; stifle or SI being the first things I’d rule out. Who knows what causes it. Rather than look at his mouth, I’d look at his overall presentation and ask if he’s 100% sound everywhere, not just in areas that produce a limp.

[dmveventer]

It sounds like your horse has multiple issues to work through. The bit may be one of them but I doubt it was causing the incidents you described, those don’t sound that unusual for a stressed out green horse. Definitely worth trying some different bits to see if anything helps but I would manage expectations for how much difference that will make until he’s more consistent in his training in general. It can be tough to break out what’s discomfort with the bit itself vs discomfort from other areas of the body vs overall tension under saddle vs a training issue. He may be dealing with all of the above. I’ve been through this cycle with my own horse and it’s frustrating trying to sort everything out.

You mention a few different cheekpieces you tried but nothing about the mouthpiece, which is the most important part. What is he in now and what else have you tried? What’s the shape/size of his mouth like? You can also check the fit of the bridle to see if that helps. What type of noseband is he in?

It sounds like your new trainer is on top of things so I would follow their lead on what to try. They should be willing to answer your questions about what types of bit they’re trying and why. If you haven’t had a full vet workup done on this horse yet I would definitely look into that as well, but I might let him settle a bit with the new trainer’s program so you have a better baseline to work from with the vet.

[cayuse]

Ok, this is probably going to sound random, but get his stifles checked. It may have nothing to do with bitting issues. The mouth issues could be an indication of discomfort somewhere and the “scooting” could be from his stifles sticking a bit and hurting or startling him. This is just a strong hunch. I’ve been there with a driving pony.

[Long_Time_Lurker]

I would first have his teeth checked, then a chiropractor and also neck and back x-rays. If he is out in the poll or TMJ or is developing arthritis in the neck or kissing spines that could cause both sharp sudden (the panics) or milder chronic (the tongue issues) discomfort with contact.
Of course it could be many other things, some of which have already been mentioned.

[oldernewbie]

I went through a long spell of trying to figure out why my normally chill horse was headshaking. One approach that really helped in trying to isolate the problem was riding him bitless. My horse did not headshake when he was ridden bitless. So, along with all of the other tips given, ride him for a while with a bitless bridle and see if he still has these scooting events and what he does with his mouth.

Side note: we did finally figure out what the issue was - he had a foreign body lodged in his jaw. It finally abscessed and we treated that. However, in the process I found a super mild bit that he likes so I have continued using it.

[Pico_Banana]

I read an article written by Anja Behrin in which she discussed working with a horse with a tongue that hung out. As other posters mentioned, she thought it was (I think) a back issue and overall relaxation that was presenting as a tongue problem. She worked on the other issues and the tongue issue mostly resolved. Might be worth trying to find.

[Kyrabee]

Yes. I won’t go into the whole saga but my mare started out nicely as a 4 yo. She was pretty immature so not much asked of her that year. She grew some more and muscled up so I we started proper dressage training the next year. She turned into a tense spooky reactive mess. It certainly wasn’t a fun ride. I was taking lessons and we spent most of it trying to get her to relax and not be so quick. She is 1/2 Andalusian so my instructor called her efforts flamenco dressage. After one particularly contentious lesson, I pried her mouth open and was horrified to find bruising and blisters on her inner cheeks. She is well endowed in the cheek tissue but has a nice ‘dry’ sculpted head. I think she was rolling the bit back to her teeth then chomping on it pinching that flabby cheek tissue between her bit and teeth.

After we determined that she did the same things with the trainer as she did with me, the bit search was on. What we ended up with was a funky little bar bit called a PeeWee bit. The difference was night and day. She doesn’t like jointed bits at all and the more joints, the worse she was. Of course the Peewee is not legal so after a year or so of retraining and her being more comfortable and not trying to jump out of her skin I was able to show her in a legal mullen mouth. She is now 23 and I ride her in a Myler mullen mouth with some tongue relief.

But yes, definitely her mouth discomfort had a big contribution to negative behaviors. I think the mouth pain distracted her and then when something else caught her attention she literally try to jump out of her skin. Thankfully, those days are past.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I also recommend the Pee Wee bit. Until copies of it get on the market there is no other bit that feels like the Pee Wee bit in the horse’s mouth. This is GOOD to avoid triggering bad memories.

Both my riding teachers were doubtful about this bit when I first showed it to them. Both of them told me that since it was me (I have good hands) they would let me try it out. After seeing how their lesson horses react to it they like it much better now.

Use this bit with light hands since the mouthpiece is pretty narrow.

I moved on to a double bridle (for subtlety not increased control) but the Pee Wee bits I bought live in my tack box because someday I will run into a horse that really, really NEEDS this bit. I generally do not like the feel of the Mullen mouth Snaffles but the Pee Wee bit feels better to my hands,