Came Corsos and Mastiffs of various types are definitely gaining popularity as tough guy dogs.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8891385]
Pit bulls are everywhere. The bad ones with the idiot owners tend to live in more modest parts of town. It is not feasible for everyone with a pit bull problem to move, nor is it logical, and frankly nor is it just. I ask again, how and why does it make sense that one dog type fanciers’ interests trump those of everyone else? We are not talking about a general nuisance. We are talking about a powerful domestic animal capable of and does render tremendous amounts of physical damage in unprovoked attacks on other domestic animals and people, on the public streets, and it’s a problem year after year.[/QUOTE]
You know. When my husband was a kid his terrier was killed by a dalmatian. There were likely very few Dalmatians in the neighborhood. Meaning the number of dogs killed “per capita” by Dalmatians was likely much higher tHan for pittbulls today. Yet no dalmatian bans.
Dalmatians would largely benefit from a muzzle policy, IME. People seem to just LOVE obese Dalmatians…
[QUOTE=Sswor;8891887]
Please don’t put words in my mouth. I say plenty of things that you can quote me with, no need to make things up and attribute them to my argument. It doesn’t support yours to do so, rather it weakens your stance. You have done this repeatedly throughout the thread. I believe it is a distraction technique, to present an argument that you can easily refute, rather then address my actual debate points.[/QUOTE]
You are gaslighting and getting awfully worked up. Peace, out.
http://www.drandyroark.com/the-unfair-necessity-of-euthanizing-an-aggressive-dog/
Came across this on my news feed. It gives some interesting insight to what it means to be a responsible dog owner.
[QUOTE=khall;8891580]
vacation where on earth did you see the ATT is for attack dogs? That is BS. http://atts.org/about-atts/
BTW Rotties are the breed most represented in the test.[/QUOTE]
When a German Shepherd owner who competes in schutzhund - translation, ‘protection dog’ - competition designs a test which a) rewards behavior which would be useful in ‘protection’ work and b) grades on a breed-specific curve of allowing certain behaviors from, say, German Shepherds which would fail a Beagle, I call the test a test of attack dogs and I call is bullshit. If it was truly a test intended to “Provide for a uniform national program of temperament testing of purebred and spayed/neutered mixed-breed dogs” you’d think somebody would use it for a similar purpose. And note the careful description of mutts as sterilized. That’s no mistake - the test is run by people who think we need to make sure there are always protection-bred German Shepherds - one of the breeds with the worst record of killing humans - and yet that mutts, even great family pets, need to be prevented from reproducing. That is one seriously screwed up set of priorities.
[QUOTE=vacation1;8893818]
When a German Shepherd owner who competes in schutzhund - translation, ‘protection dog’ - competition designs a test which a) rewards behavior which would be useful in ‘protection’ work and b) grades on a breed-specific curve of allowing certain behaviors from, say, German Shepherds which would fail a Beagle, I call the test a test of attack dogs and I call is bullshit. If it was truly a test intended to “Provide for a uniform national program of temperament testing of purebred and spayed/neutered mixed-breed dogs” you’d think somebody would use it for a similar purpose. And note the careful description of mutts as sterilized. That’s no mistake - the test is run by people who think we need to make sure there are always protection-bred German Shepherds - one of the breeds with the worst record of killing humans - and yet that mutts, even great family pets, need to be prevented from reproducing. That is one seriously screwed up set of priorities.[/QUOTE]
Some of the worst dog owners I’ve ever met were involved in Shutzhund. These are the ones I think of when I hear aggressive dog apologists. One of these owners was ranting to me about how someone provoked a bite from her dog by using some command that “everyone should know.” She wouldn’t tell me the magic word/action, I certainly didn’t want to use it. I’m terrified by her dog anyway, so she locks it up when I’m around. I think that makes her happy. She’s a friend of a friend.
There’s another aggressive dog sport thing whose participants have largely struck me the same way. They INSIST that their highly trained animals would never hurt anyone and that they are the pinnacle of responsible dog ownership. Some probably are, but it’s in spite of doing this activity, not because of it.
It’s like a bucking horse breeder/contractor offering kids pony rides. I guess you could make it work… But it’s anyone surprised to find a bunch of bucked off kids? How many need to be critically injured before we need to make a rule about how stupid this is?
I know absolutely nothing about that type of training or what it means except there was a push a while back regarding have protection dogs for your family. Articles would show up on newsfeeds maybe because it was thought a trained dog was safer than a random dog bred for protection but untrained.
I thought it ironic at the time, since I knew a policeman who said the house that takes a retired police dog has to be very careful due to the training the dogs received.
Just to clarify to the poster that stated that BSL bans do not mean euthanasia for the breed. Perhaps you should inform yourself further as some places that is indeed what will happen. Montreal, Quebec, in Canada just passed a “Pitt Bull” Ban and ordered all shelter dogs of that type/breed destroyed. It has currently been put on hold, as public outcry did not go unnoticed.
It didn’t order them destroyed. It made it impossible for them to be adopted out locally. Admittedly, that meant that unless they could be adopted out by people outside the city, the shelters would either have to house them permanently or destroy them. Before the ink was even dry, rescue groups across North America were fundraising to bring shelter Pitbulls from Montreal in.
As ridiculous as that is. People in Edmonton, where there are at least two Pitt focused rescue groups with adoptable dogs (according to them), were pushing the SPCA to “save” Montreal Pitbulls. Several Pitts made it to Alberta (Calgary anyway) with heartwarming Facebook tributes available.
Public outcry was fierce though… I just wonder why those Pitbulls were in shelter to begin with. Where was the enthusiasm then?
[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8892143]
If it’s a lab crossed with a bully type, and is a stocky, block headed, short coated dog… I’m not sure I understand the need for a major distinction. The Montreal proposal was based largely on phenotype… Which actually isn’t that stupid. It’s the physical characteristics, not necessarily the genetics that make the dog risky. A genetic Pitbull with no teeth weighing under 15 lbs for example. I don’t really care about it’s genes…its probably not any more dangerous than any other dog.
The DNA argument is stupid, I think. Phenotype bans make more sense.[/QUOTE]
My friend just adopted a lab-sized, shepherd colored, medium-furred blockhead of a dog. She refers to him as having “too much face for his face”:lol:. Looking at him, I’d swear there was AmStaff or something like that in the mix. She had a DNA test done and the results were: 25% German Shorthaired Pointer, 12.5% or less “other” which included GSD, golden retriever, poodle, and…shar pei.
I know that the DNA tests are far from foolproof, but I would’t go as far as to assume phenotype will tell you much more.
I do always wonder why more discussions about aggressive breeds don’t include Shar Peis. The crosses often have a lot of similar characteristics to what people call “pitbulls” , and even purebred Shar Peis (what I’m told were purebreds anyway) don’t look a lot like the cuddly wrinkle dogs in the breed books.
I used to know a guy who kept two. They looked Pitbull-y, and were aggressive as all get-out. This guy and his neighbor were not on good terms. Anyway, at some point the one dog started limping and being more aggressive. Buddy took her to the vet and learned and been SHOT. Like a week before. He suspected the neighbour. Sure, low calibre and everything, but holy God, What a tough dog. He thought maybe she’d pulled a muscle. No, bullet.
I have been following this thread intently since last week, and I need to jump in.
I watched “The Champions” on Netflix based on the recommendation earlier in the thread, and I was in tears. I don’t want any animal to suffer, and I’m genuinely happy that so far the rehabs have been a success. But man, pit bull types still scare the heck out of me. And I worry about the kids and other animals who are thrown into the equation because the adults are enthusiasts who turn a blind eye.
This is based purely on my own experiences.
I need to agree with Sswor on the neighborhood issue. I, also, have a neighborhood with several threatening Pit Bull-type dogs, and it makes me nervous to walk my dogs. I am constantly outside walking my little 25 lb piles of floppy, mushy, energetic Beagle/Spaniel mixes. There is one pit in particular that has lunged and barked at us from a distance while its struggling owner tried to restrain it on its leash. The woman is little. If that dog were to break away, what would happen to my guys? I’m not strong, myself.
We also walk at an off-leash park. It is wooded trails. There is one petite pit bull we see on a regular basis whose “play” style is to stalk from afar, and then sprint, while growling and hackles raised, onto other dogs. It’s owner is obviously aware that others don’t find this behavior okay, because now as he approaches other walkers, he calls ahead to say “She is friendly, she is just playing.” Then one day, I sped up on the trail to get away from the owner to avoid the situation, and he sped up too, calling from behind saying his dog wanted to play with my dogs. Are you kidding me? Stay away. I wouldn’t want my little ones to be aggressively pounced on by any large dog, even if the dog is truly unflappable and dog friendly.
Just this weekend, yet another pit bull comes flying around the trail corner. I haven’t encountered this one before- she is also sprinting at my little floppy pups, hackles raised, so I immediately begin to run in front of my guys because when I say that they are floppy, submissive ragdolls, I am not exaggerating. The owners, meanwhile, have been screaming the dog’s name to come back, and it is not listening. They THEN start yelling at me to not touch her, because while she is “dog friendly, she doesn’t like people”. THEN WHY IS SHE OFF LEASH. WITH NO RECALL. You bet I will guard my guys. We encounter dozens of different dogs at this park. Why are my two bad experiences with pit bulls? That same day we ran into a woman with a Rottie who was rescued off the streets of Miami. Unknown background. But she was leashed, and politely greeting my guys.
A friend of mine rescued a Pit/Boxer mix. The dog has undergone intensive training, and just last week she was incredibly upset, because while picking him up at day care, he started lunging and trying to attack two little girls who were there with their dad to pick up their own dog. She said that he almost bit her, while she was trying to restrain him. She is another small person, and what could have happened had he gotten away from her?
My final story. Years ago, family friends of ours purchased a pit bull puppy as their family dog. They raised it in a loving home, and all the while insisted that the pit bull stigma was wrong, and that Shady was a loving family dog. Fast forward by a couple of years, and their young son has a friend over. Shady attacks the little boy. Needless to say, they did not replace Shady with another pit bull.
This is all purely anecdotal based off of personal experience. No, I don’t think that the solution is for every pit bull to be euthanized. Yes, I think owners do play a large part in the unfortunate stories. But bottom line for me personally is that I surely will never, ever trust the breed. Why risk it? There are scores of other breed dogs out there who need homes, and who don’t have a stigma attached to them. Sswor hit the nail on the head with “Some of the pit owners who swear up and down it is 100% the owners, will be surprised some day. Not all, but some, and that’s a roulette I would never play.” Yes, when I see other large-breed dogs out and about, I am extra vigilent, just because my guys are small. I am cautious around greyhounds due to their prey drive. As a responsible dog owner, it is my job to protect my own little fur kiddos, and that will be my first priority always, no matter what extreme. I am aware that I have small, submissive dogs, who naively treat anyone and anything as their instant friend, and I take necessary precautions to keep them as safe as I can. Likewise, owners of larger, possibly more aggressive dogs, should be cognizant of what they have, and treat situations appropriately.
I am so sorry that you had that experience, OP. It really hits close to home for me.
[QUOTE=MarigoldMagic;8897148]
I have been following this thread intently since last week, and I need to jump in.
I watched “The Champions” on Netflix based on the recommendation earlier in the thread, and I was in tears. I don’t want any animal to suffer, and I’m genuinely happy that so far the rehabs have been a success. But man, pit bull types still scare the heck out of me. And I worry about the kids and other animals who are thrown into the equation because the adults are enthusiasts who turn a blind eye.
This is based purely on my own experiences.
I need to agree with Sswor on the neighborhood issue. I, also, have a neighborhood with several threatening Pit Bull-type dogs, and it makes me nervous to walk my dogs. I am constantly outside walking my little 25 lb piles of floppy, mushy, energetic Beagle/Spaniel mixes. There is one pit in particular that has lunged and barked at us from a distance while its struggling owner tried to restrain it on its leash. The woman is little. If that dog were to break away, what would happen to my guys? I’m not strong, myself.
We also walk at an off-leash park. It is wooded trails. There is one petite pit bull we see on a regular basis whose “play” style is to stalk from afar, and then sprint, while growling and hackles raised, onto other dogs. It’s owner is obviously aware that others don’t find this behavior okay, because now as he approaches other walkers, he calls ahead to say “She is friendly, she is just playing.” Then one day, I sped up on the trail to get away from the owner to avoid the situation, and he sped up too, calling from behind saying his dog wanted to play with my dogs. Are you kidding me? Stay away. I wouldn’t want my little ones to be aggressively pounced on by any large dog, even if the dog is truly unflappable and dog friendly.
Just this weekend, yet another pit bull comes flying around the trail corner. I haven’t encountered this one before- she is also sprinting at my little floppy pups, hackles raised, so I immediately begin to run in front of my guys because when I say that they are floppy, submissive ragdolls, I am not exaggerating. The owners, meanwhile, have been screaming the dog’s name to come back, and it is not listening. They THEN start yelling at me to not touch her, because while she is “dog friendly, she doesn’t like people”. THEN WHY IS SHE OFF LEASH. WITH NO RECALL. You bet I will guard my guys. We encounter dozens of different dogs at this park. Why are my two bad experiences with pit bulls? That same day we ran into a woman with a Rottie who was rescued off the streets of Miami. Unknown background. But she was leashed, and politely greeting my guys.
A friend of mine rescued a Pit/Boxer mix. The dog has undergone intensive training, and just last week she was incredibly upset, because while picking him up at day care, he started lunging and trying to attack two little girls who were there with their dad to pick up their own dog. She said that he almost bit her, while she was trying to restrain him. She is another small person, and what could have happened had he gotten away from her?
My final story. Years ago, family friends of ours purchased a pit bull puppy as their family dog. They raised it in a loving home, and all the while insisted that the pit bull stigma was wrong, and that Shady was a loving family dog. Fast forward by a couple of years, and their young son has a friend over. Shady attacks the little boy. Needless to say, they did not replace Shady with another pit bull.
This is all purely anecdotal based off of personal experience. No, I don’t think that the solution is for every pit bull to be euthanized. Yes, I think owners do play a large part in the unfortunate stories. But bottom line for me personally is that I surely will never, ever trust the breed. Why risk it? There are scores of other breed dogs out there who need homes, and who don’t have a stigma attached to them. Sswor hit the nail on the head with “Some of the pit owners who swear up and down it is 100% the owners, will be surprised some day. Not all, but some, and that’s a roulette I would never play.” Yes, when I see other large-breed dogs out and about, I am extra vigilent, just because my guys are small. I am cautious around greyhounds due to their prey drive. As a responsible dog owner, it is my job to protect my own little fur kiddos, and that will be my first priority always, no matter what extreme. I am aware that I have small, submissive dogs, who naively treat anyone and anything as their instant friend, and I take necessary precautions to keep them as safe as I can. Likewise, owners of larger, possibly more aggressive dogs, should be cognizant of what they have, and treat situations appropriately.
I am so sorry that you had that experience, OP. It really hits close to home for me.[/QUOTE]
I feel you, MM. 
What people so often forget is that laws are not passed with law-abiding citizens in mind. They are passed in an attempt to control the people who routinely disregard or break societal laws and deviate from accepted norms.
You could make the argument that NO law is effective 100% of the time. There are still millions of people texting at the wheel, driving without a seatbelt, buying illegal firearms, etc etc etc… just because it’s still happening doesn’t mean the laws are pointless or shouldn’t be in place.
I repeat - I am FOR “breed specific legislation”, but I don’t necessarily think it should just be for pitbulls, nope. And it doesn’t necessarily have to come in the form of a all-out ban, either. If you CHOOSE to acquire a large, powerful breed of dog, there should be laws in place to police you - muzzles and leashes in public at ALL times, mandatory yearly temperament testing, that sort of thing. And if you feel that infringes on your “rights”, then buy an acreage in the country and keep your dog on it - stop bringing it to the godd*mn pet store, stop bringing it to the park where children run amok, stop walking it down busy, bustling city streets. If you want a pet you can do that with, then get an activity-appropriate animal or breed.
Unfortunately, yes, the bad apples can and will spoil things for everyone in life. Deal with it. It wouldn’t be the first time something was “taken away” or “imposed” on everyone because of the actions of a few. It’s how laws work. And it’s how our society avoids descending into chaos.
These pitbull bans did not materialize out of nowhere for no reason. There was a significant enough public outcry in certain places to spur lawmakers into action. There is no pittie-hating conspiracy going on.
I’m very tired of seeing the people on TV (yes, that show on Animal Planet) where they keep saying how misunderstood their animals are. One case from California involved a savage attack (actually two in the same area on the same person) by 4 dogs, and supposedly one dog didn’t participate. The one dog was ‘saved’, and given to the rescue.
I googled the story from the local paper, and the interview with the owner and his mother was full of garbage, and the story as presented on the show left out a ton of past history. If you can believe the reporters, and multiple animal control and police reports, the animals involved were all adult, unvaccinated, unlicensed, unneutered, and had been out of the yard repeatedly. Then the rescue whined about the restrictions the court put on keeping the animal, and they kept talking on the show about how harmless the dog was. The poor young man who was repeatedly attacked probably wouldn’t agree, and I hope he sued the owner, and his homeowner mother for damages and won every single penny they had.
Delusional owners of dogs that have repeatedly attacked should be required to euthanize, and I don’t care how cute and loving they supposedly are. One case on Judge Judy was a ‘rescue’ of either a Presa, or Cane Corso, and it got away from the owner, and savagely attacked a Maltese on the owners property. The attacking dog pushed a full driveway gate out of the way, went after the Maltese, and it took a huge amount of stitches to fix the little dog. The owner of the attacking dog finally admitted her dog had to be put down, but tried to sue for the injuries the small dog owners and neighbors inflicted on her dog getting him away from the little dog and claimed the injuries by the other owners, and neighbors caused the dog to be put down. Judge Judy told the attacking dog owner to stuff it.
In the hallterview (interview in hall) the owner of the small dog said the reason the big dog was put down is that it attacked and killed a 10 year old, tiny poodle at the vet office, and was put down right then. I don’t know why the animal control report wasn’t presented in court, but it’s another case of someone’s delusion causing injuries to other animals or people.
I’m sick of excuses that cause people or animals to suffer because someone wants to keep a vicious dog around.
But BSLs don’t work!! Dangerous dog laws do. Target the problem dogs not an entire breed. So ASBjumper, which breeds will you ban? Could be a long list there.
I too worked as a vet tech and by far the dogs that I did not want to deal with were chows. They are notorious for people aggression. We also had really bad Rottie (aptly named RIP) a pretty bad sharpei (but one of the techs had a sharpei that was very nice) and a GSD police dog that would bite anyone including his handler. He was a nervy dog, where the Rottie was truly aggressive, eat you aggressive.
All the bullies we had were just lovely to work on, including the not quite 1 yr old whose stupid owner wanted to dock her tail so he cut it off with lopping shears! She had to have the rest amputated and ended up with a nub. Never a nasty word from her.
Chows are also notorious. Martha Stewart has always impressed me (awed?) and I always thought it completely fitting that she favoured Chows. Unless you are a Martha Stewart in terms of sheer dominant personality, I doubt you should own a Chow.
So far, this list is looking like (in Urban areas) requiring leashes, muzzles and mandatory spay/neuter except by special license, and requiring owners to purchase at least $1M in liability :
- Pitbulls and dogs that look like pitbulls
- Shar Peis
- Chow Chow
- Cane Corso
- Mastiffs exceeding 15lbs
- Presa Canario
- Rottweiler
- Trained Hog Dog
- Trained Schutzhund dog
- GSD (?? Did we decide here? They might be self limiting due to the en vogue breeding practices)
- Akita
- Wolfhound (I added that, I lived in a city with a feral wolfhound problem. They were the
worst crossed with malamutes.)
I’d be ok with this controlled legislation. But it needs to include some method of assessing “vicious” that doesn’t rely on waiting until a human is seriously injured. I feel like veterinarians could be involved here. And mandatory checkups for licensing. I also feel like off leash areas should be accessible only to people with licensed dogs, and fines for unlicensed dogs should exceed the purchase price of the animal.
Of course, people will be non compliant. Hopefully the crippling fines associated with violation will provide a deterrent.
I think any dog that runs loose and bites someone* should just be destroyed automatically. No assessments, no temperament testing, no giving up to rescues, etc.
- who isn’t actively trying to catch it. I mean it comes onto your property and bites, or attacks you in the street.
If it bites on your property because maybe someone got between it and its bowl, or it was guarding its territory or whatever, then an assessment as to danger can be made. Maybe it needs killing, maybe it doesn’t.
But
- Relatively few dogs run loose (at least in densely pop areas) and
- Relatively few dogs bite, esp unprovoked.
You hit this bifecta, it’s a no-brainer. Sure, owner could whine that doggie only got away from them this one time, but you still have #2 to contend with - it’s a dog willing to attack. A dog willing to attack, owned by someone who has proven thy can’t contain it.
Coanteen, how about bites to other animals? Dangerous dog apologists often blame small dog owners for having animals that too closely resemble prey.
Also, suppose your dog escapes (jumps a six foot fence) and lands on a smaller dog, seriously injuring them? This is my main (sadly, true life) litmus test. I feel that dog should probably be destroyed. The owners did not, and the small dog owners were content with getting their multi thousand dollar vet bills covered.
[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8897765]
Coanteen, how about bites to other animals? Dangerous dog apologists often blame small dog owners for having animals that too closely resemble prey.
Also, suppose your dog escapes (jumps a six foot fence) and lands on a smaller dog, seriously injuring them? This is my main (sadly, true life) litmus test. I feel that dog should probably be destroyed. The owners did not, and the small dog owners were content with getting their multi thousand dollar vet bills covered.[/QUOTE]
I’d be ok with more investigation as to pets, because even with a dog running loose which it shouldn’t be, it’s still possible the other animal started it. Yeah, if it’s proven the dog attacks other pets unprovoked, should also be destroyed. Hey, if your dog runs around attacking smaller pets that “look like prey” - contain/muzzle it, or kill it. Not hard.
But my bar for that is not as low as for attacking people.
Tbh your “lands on small dog” example made me LOL (sorry!). I mean it wouldn’t be funny for the little dog irl, but I wouldn’t destroy a dog for inadvertently landing on something. That’s not an attack, that’s just really bad luck.
But for ex the Montreal bylaw that was fought against as BSL (it was) also made provisions for all dogs, not just bullie-types. It made 2 classes, ‘at-risk’ and ‘dangerous’ - ‘at-risk’ is if they bite, and they need to be muzzled; 'dangerous is if they kill, and they need to be destroyed.
I’d drop the breed thing and up any dog that bites a person off its property to ‘dangerous’. On its own property one can quibble whether it should be ‘at-risk’, but the thing’s in a public space or someone else’s space and attacks a person, just freaking kill it*.
- common-sense exemptions apply, say a vet did something unexpectedly painful and dog snaps, or its owner got attacked and dog is defending owner.
