[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8901330]
Well, you did determine a pack that included Wolfhounds was seized in the town, and became aware of three seizures of actual Wolfhounds that you weren’t previously aware of. I disagree with you that those dogs posed no threar, you didn’t interact with them, and I did. I will admit that the crosses seemed more aggressive. I’m glad they went to experienced people. If they’d been adopted to the general public, I feel that would have posed a real threat. Euthanasia was apparently never on the table due to a strict no kill policy.
So hopefully next time someone alerts you about an issue with your breed, you won’t be so quick to dismiss them out of hand. Incidentally, your reaction is almost the exact same as the reaction LOUDLY repeated by breed fanciers every time someone is attacked by any dog.[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry, rugby girl, I did not mean to “dismiss you out of hand”.
Thank you, I do appreciate learning more about this awful hoarding situation that I was not previously aware of. I got to have a lovely chat with my friends and colleagues in the IWCC.
I’d be willing to muzzle (and leash–they are already always, always leashed) my small dogs if it meant they would be safer out in public. If it was a law that applied to all, I would be all in on muzzling my dogs. Anything to keep them safer.
Small dog owners have very little protection for their pets. There is very little we can do against big, aggressive dogs at large to keep our little pets safe. We don’t have a lot of options. Again–dog advocates and rescue groups seem to care less about our pets. They seem only concerned with filling neighborhoods with as many pit bulls as they possibly can. Our little beloved pets be damned. Why is that?
Something that just occurred to me–someone should invent a coat of armor for little dogs. There is a coyote blanket that is sold that is supposed to protect little dogs if they get snatched–I wonder if it would work against pit bulls? Might need reinforcing. I’m envisioning something electrified with a battery pack and big spikes…
[QUOTE=Houndhill;8901357]
I’m sorry, rugby girl, I did not mean to “dismiss you out of hand”.
Thank you, I do appreciate learning more about this awful hoarding situation that I was not previously aware of. I got to have a lovely chat with my friends and colleagues in the IWCC.
Something that just occurred to me–someone should invent a coat of armor for little dogs. There is a coyote blanket that is sold that is supposed to protect little dogs if they get snatched–I wonder if it would work against pit bulls? Might need reinforcing. I’m envisioning something electrified with a battery pack and big spikes…[/QUOTE]
LOL. My short dog wears a hunting vest that is puncture proof after a run in with a pitch fork laying tines up in long grass (NOT MY PROPERTY!). I am sure an entire small dog suit of armor could be made of the same stuff. Given the fact that she kills things (wild things not welcome on the farm…not peoples pets) smaller than her by crushing and shaking and things larger than her largely by suffocation (she is a Jagdterrier NOT A PB) I am not sure it would work. I think PBs have a similar style.
Would any of the urban dwellers that deal with scary dogs consider some sort of cattle prod/taser device? Seriously until things change if you are truly scared for yourself and your dogs maybe that would work? I’ve no experience with such things and don’t know how difficult/easy they are to use but that is what comes to mind when I consider what I would do in your shoes.
[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8901330]
Well, you did determine a pack that included Wolfhounds was seized in the town, and became aware of three seizures of actual Wolfhounds that you weren’t previously aware of. I disagree with you that those dogs posed no threar, you didn’t interact with them, and I did. I will admit that the crosses seemed more aggressive. I’m glad they went to experienced people. If they’d been adopted to the general public, I feel that would have posed a real threat. Euthanasia was apparently never on the table due to a strict no kill policy.
So hopefully next time someone alerts you about an issue with your breed, you won’t be so quick to dismiss them out of hand. Incidentally, your reaction is almost the exact same as the reaction LOUDLY repeated by breed fanciers every time someone is attacked by any dog.[/QUOTE]
To me this is a big part of the problem. No Kill Policies are find and dandy in a perfect world where every animal (or person) is good and sweet. However, there are bad dogs, bad people, bad horses, bad cats, etc. out there. To blindly say that no animal should be killed is idealistic to the point of ridiculous.
Many times I don’t think it’s all that great for the animals it ‘saves’. Aside from keeping aggressive animals around, there are tales of elderly pets that are stuck in a cage after years of living on a couch because their owner died and there is no one to take them. I don’t think it’s really kind to keep an animal alive just because you’re too guilty not to.
[QUOTE=sisu27;8901398]
LOL. My short dog wears a hunting vest that is puncture proof after a run in with a pitch fork laying tines up in long grass (NOT MY PROPERTY!). I am sure an entire small dog suit of armor could be made of the same stuff. Given the fact that she kills things (wild things not welcome on the farm…not peoples pets) smaller than her by crushing and shaking and things larger than her largely by suffocation (she is a Jagdterrier NOT A PB) I am not sure it would work. I think PBs have a similar style.
Would any of the urban dwellers that deal with scary dogs consider some sort of cattle prod/taser device? Seriously until things change if you are truly scared for yourself and your dogs maybe that would work? I’ve no experience with such things and don’t know how difficult/easy they are to use but that is what comes to mind when I consider what I would do in your shoes.[/QUOTE]
That’s why it would need to be electrified. ZAP at first touch. The spikes would just add a satisfying and confidence-building appearance. I think there is a market here…
I have considered the cattle prod. It would rely on the skill of the user, though. An electrified vest for the pupkin would largely negate that.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8901429]
That’s why it would need to be electrified. ZAP at first touch. The spikes would just add a satisfying and confidence-building appearance. I think there is a market here…
.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=sisu27;8901398]
LOL. My short dog wears a hunting vest that is puncture proof after a run in with a pitch fork laying tines up in long grass (NOT MY PROPERTY!). I am sure an entire small dog suit of armor could be made of the same stuff. Given the fact that she kills things (wild things not welcome on the farm…not peoples pets) smaller than her by crushing and shaking and things larger than her largely by suffocation (she is a Jagdterrier NOT A PB) I am not sure it would work. I think PBs have a similar style.
Would any of the urban dwellers that deal with scary dogs consider some sort of cattle prod/taser device? Seriously until things change if you are truly scared for yourself and your dogs maybe that would work? I’ve no experience with such things and don’t know how difficult/easy they are to use but that is what comes to mind when I consider what I would do in your shoes.[/QUOTE]
I would do it, if it were legal to carry that kind of thing in the city. In my old city. I should probably repeat that my new city doesn’t have the same problems. I still have residual passion for people who are as afraid as I was. Anything that can be used as a weapon against a large dog can also hurt a human…so it makes sense that most places don’t let you carry that kind of thing. I mean it’s regulated
I’m not trying to be offensive. We’re just not allowed to carry most kids of weapons in Canada.
In the US, you might be able to do this more easily.
[QUOTE=Houndhill;8901323]
Oh no, I agree with you.
I am also opposed to BSL, as applied to Pit Bulls or any other breed. I was just staying out of this particular discussion as I see no purpose in it, but I admit I could not resist being drawn in at the mention of the “town that had a problem with feral wolfhounds”!
I have read and greatly appreciated the Bronwen Dickey book on Pit Bulls. I admit I was a skeptic about reading it as I felt she was a journalist, not a scientist, but I was greatly impressed with the depth of her scientific research.
I’m a big “Blame the deed, not the breed” person and have given input when asked about our community’s Dangerous Dog Legislation, which thankfully was passed in a form that is not breed specific.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, in that case I think I misuderstood your previous post.
Yeah, except I have a feeling that those who already don’t care abot leash laws now will not have a magical change of mind about muzzling their dogs. It will be back to square 1.
Small dog owners have very little protection for their pets. There is very little we can do against big, aggressive dogs at large to keep our little pets safe. We don’t have a lot of options. Again–dog advocates and rescue groups seem to care less about our pets. They seem only concerned with filling neighborhoods with as many pit bulls as they possibly can. Our little beloved pets be damned. Why is that?
Frankly, cause it’s not a rescue groups mandate to advocate for your small pet that already has a good home. YOU are your dog’s advocate.
It’s usually the (self-proclaimed) mandate of rescue groups to help out with the dog population that gets killed in shelters by the millions every year. Unfortunately (for you as much as me), Pit Bull type dogs make up a large part of the shelter dog population, they are worst off trying to find good new homes, and so some rescue groups feel like they need the most help. You get that in other areas too - why would a rescue advocate for old or disabled dogs? If they just chose young, healthy dogs chances are they could save more animals, cause they would adopt them out faster. Why would a rescue group chose to bring in dogs from Mexico when there are plenty of dogs locally that die in shelters?
I think that every rescue group should be able to decide where their focus lies, cause it’s their time, their energy and their money that is being spent. There are plenty of rescue groups that advocate for small dogs, ship them in from elsewhere etc.
Also unfortunately (for both of us), some rescues do it better and some worse at matching up potential new homes with dog candidates. You are right, for some it really seems hat the main goal is to get as many dog out of shelters as possible, even if the situation they end up in is not ideal. I don’t agree with that either. However, I know that VRC has been criticized on this thread, but I think they are a remarkably responsible rescue. Even though they have a lot of pressure from incoming dogs, they very thoroughly screen their applicants and rather NOT adopt if they are not sure an applicant is suitable.
It’s been very clear that there is a court order that the dog in question on this thread (the one from Vegas) is required to stay at the rescue lifelong and never get adopted out. So I think the danger to the public is minimal.
Honestly, I know I’m biased, but from my own experience as someone who exculsively has adult rescue dogs, it’s much easier to come by a nice Pit Bull in rescue than one of the more popular breeds. At the point where you find a Golden Retriever, Standard Poodle or Dalmatian in a shelter, chances are that a) it gets snatched up by a breed-specific rescue group faster than you can look or if not then b) there are some serious issues (health or behavior). With the more popular breeds, the demand is usually bigger than the supply. They prettyuch never get overlooked. With Pit Bulls, that isn’t so. Whenever I have been looking for a dog, I basically had free choice as far as age, temperament, gender, health, looks… and I’ve always gotten fantastic dogs.
I’ve been active in shelters and rescues for a few years and have handled plenty of different dogs. I’ve been nailed in the knee pretty hard by a Hovawart once and had one Dutch Sheperd / Malinois and one Aussie come up the leash at my arm. We’ve had LSGs (mostly Kuvasz and Anatolians) that would have killed any little or not so little dog that came their way, no questions asked. The shelter once adopted out a few Greyhounds from a race track that closed, one of them came back cause he killed a small dog - his dumbass owners had him on a retractable leash and the Greyhound was faster than they could retract the leash. We had a few dogs that had killed cats, one German Wirehaired Pointer in particular. We had one small Terrier that took a good chunk out of another small mix.
I never had a bad experience with a Pit Bull type dog, other than they can be reactive to other dogs, which is really quite easy to manage if you know how.
Actually, that particular shelter was a lot MORE stringent when adopting out Pit Bulls or even just giving them to dog walkers. They knew that other dogs would probably get the benefit of doubt if something happened, but a Pit Bull would be in big trouble, possibly dead.
Something that just occurred to me–someone should invent a coat of armor for little dogs. There is a coyote blanket that is sold that is supposed to protect little dogs if they get snatched–I wonder if it would work against pit bulls? Might need reinforcing. I’m envisioning something electrified with a battery pack and big spikes…
There are cut vests and cut collars to protect hog dogs from getting slashed. They’re made from kevlar and work well.
Skyon-That story is horrific! And an unvaccinated dog, and the animal control did nothing?
DogIsMyCopilot-VRC does do a great job of screening, and screening out owners. However, they have taken in at least two high profile dogs one that was part of the owner’s pack of unvaccinated, unneutered, uncontained dogs that horribly maimed a young man, and another that repeatedly was at large and attacked other animals. They were whining on the TV show (reruns this week, and last week) that showed a very slanted story on how ‘innocent’ the dogs were, and how unjust it was they had to keep the animals for life at the kennels, instead of adopting them out. Not cool in my estimation.
I’m not in favor of BSL legislation, but strict vicious and dangerous dog regulations, with steep penalties for irresponsible owners. However, since every state, and county, and many cities have their own regulations, the uniform laws will never happen or be applied consistently.
[QUOTE=red mares;8901425]
To me this is a big part of the problem. No Kill Policies are find and dandy in a perfect world where every animal (or person) is good and sweet. However, there are bad dogs, bad people, bad horses, bad cats, etc. out there. To blindly say that no animal should be killed is idealistic to the point of ridiculous.
Many times I don’t think it’s all that great for the animals it ‘saves’. Aside from keeping aggressive animals around, there are tales of elderly pets that are stuck in a cage after years of living on a couch because their owner died and there is no one to take them. I don’t think it’s really kind to keep an animal alive just because you’re too guilty not to.[/QUOTE]
I can’t speak for what happened to all the other dogs in the Irving seizures, but the nine Irish Wolfhounds were not at all aggressive, although they were only to experienced Irish Wolfhound homes due to some that were shy, and many had medical issues.
However, euthanasia is definitely NOT off the table for IWCC or IWCA rescue, particularly in the very rare cases of aggression to humans or veterinary issues that require euthanasia.
Perhaps this strict “no kill policy” was the policy of the SPCA or some of the other breed rescues that may have been involved.
Irish Wolfhounds in rescue, though thankfully rare, are generally in foster homes while they are evaluated, and there is usually a long waiting list to adopt them, if they are deemed suitable for adoption. We do require fences, premise checks, application, references, etc.
I certainly agree that not all rescue animals can or should be “saved” and that euthanasia is sometimes the responsible thing to do.
[QUOTE=DogIsMyCopilot;8902156]
Frankly, cause it’s not a rescue groups mandate to advocate for your small pet that already has a good home. YOU are your dog’s advocate. It’s usually the (self-proclaimed) mandate of rescue groups to help out with the dog population that gets killed in shelters by the millions every year. Unfortunately (for you as much as me), Pit Bull type dogs make up a large part of the shelter dog population, they are worst off trying to find good new homes, and so some rescue groups feel like they need the most help… There are plenty of rescue groups that advocate for small dogs, ship them in from elsewhere etc.[/QUOTE]
This is a very limited and cold-blooded view of the sheltering and rehoming of homeless pets. Shelters and rescues are not opposing teams here, not competing fast food chains vying to thrust our product into consumer’s hands. The essential goal of the humane movement is to make the world a better place. This doesn’t happen if a pit bull rescue rehomes a ‘reactive’ pit bull that butchers the new owner’s small dog on the owner’s front porch, say, which happened in Detroit a couple years ago thanks to media darlings Detroit Dog Rescue. Or if a city animal control agency decides that rehoming violent large dogs is fine because small dogs just aren’t as important as keeping down those euth numbers, which happened in Albuquerque.
I’m sure you do. It must be like walking into a store where everything is your size. I’d envy you except that I remember the days when the same was true of dogs in general, including the herding types I love. And how I left each shelter upset because it tears out your soul to see the dogs you love standing in cages, without a person. And in those days, you knew most of those dogs were easy family pets. They used to euthanize the dogs who weren’t.
No, it is not easy to manage reactivity. I had a 35lb collie mix who was reactive in the old sense of being upset and barky when she saw other dogs, and it was not easy to manage her small, mild behavior. Managing a dog as strong as a pit bull would be much harder. Particularly when by ‘reactive’ you mean ‘wants very strongly to attack and kill dogs’ which is what so many people who burble about reactive pit bulls mean.
Considering that 99% of the time, when ‘something happens’ with a pit bull and a dog, the dog is the one who has an immediate life-threatening situation, that slant of perspective is utterly labored. It’s odd to me that pit bull owners have no qualms about expressing their very strong sense of being targeted and victimized, despite the rather spectacular circumstances which lead to them and their pets ending up needing FB pages demanding justice or GoFundMe sites to raise lawyer costs. When your bazooka oopsy goes bang, then yes, you may (if the victims are very persistent) be ‘targeted’ by animal control and after months and months of missed court dates and dangerous dog hearings and appeals and hysterical FB posts and marches by pit rescues and frantic calls to the Lexus Group, you may face the choice of spending a couple thousand dollars on dangerous dog insurance for Khaoz or surrending it for euthanization. It’s not exactly like the stormtroopers came and seized the shrinking child from its mother’s arms here.
[QUOTE=Houndhill;8902247]
I can’t speak for what happened to all the other dogs in the Irving seizures, but the nine Irish Wolfhounds were not at all aggressive, although they were only to experienced Irish Wolfhound homes due to some that were shy, and many had medical issues.
However, euthanasia is definitely NOT off the table for IWCC or IWCA rescue, particularly in the very rare cases of aggression to humans or veterinary issues that require euthanasia.
Perhaps this strict “no kill policy” was the policy of the SPCA or some of the other breed rescues that may have been involved.
Irish Wolfhounds in rescue, though thankfully rare, are generally in foster homes while they are evaluated, and there is usually a long waiting list to adopt them, if they are deemed suitable for adoption. We do require fences, premise checks, application, references, etc.
I certainly agree that not all rescue animals can or should be “saved” and that euthanasia is sometimes the responsible thing to do.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that was an SPCA policy, nothing to do with breed specific rescue. In a lot of cities in Canada our animal control is essentially contracted out to local groups. So the group policy (in this case a local SPCA) indirectly sets public policy. It’s a little bit complicated. In that particular town, animal control and the SPCA were the same.
If any of you pit bull fans would like an opportunity, the one who attacked my dog is not doing well with a new baby in his home. He’s about 8 years old and needs a new home ASAP.
[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8902401]
Where’s the cupcake shop located? I know several blow hards whining about the Montreal ban who should be all over this…
Eta: not here, I don’t think anyone here is being a blow hard. I mean in my real life.[/QUOTE]
I’m in NJ. The dog is owned by friends of mine that are hoping he would be ok in a child and pet free home. He’s VERY large, well over 100lbs. I know what I would do in their position but respect that they want to try to rehome. He just needs to come with a very clear warning.
ANY dog that is people aggressive/ kid aggressive should be euthanized. That is MHO and I have lived that opinion when I put down a small pit bull type that ended up people (man and child) aggressive.
I did have one pit bull type foster that was a resource guarder over squeaky toys, she never bit anyone but would growl. I worked diligently with her on two toy and give and made sure she was adopted into adult only home, though she loved kids I did not want her put in a situation that a child may make a mistake. Her new family adores her, she is a great snuggler on the couch.
If any dog is so reactive it is dangerous to go on leash walks, they need serious retraining. None of my fosters, pit bull or otherwise have been that reactive. One of my personal dogs was, our 95 lb bully mix of some sort (RR look alike) But with diligent training he got over it very easily. Was just a matter of training, which so many pet owners are not that great about doing.
[QUOTE=AliCat;8902398]
If any of you pit bull fans would like an opportunity, the one who attacked my dog is not doing well with a new baby in his home. He’s about 8 years old and needs a new home ASAP.[/QUOTE]
Let me guess, he is either “Blue Line” or “Red Nose”.
I don’t see where that is “cold-blooded and limited” (keep in mind I’m German and we’re said to have a harsh way of communicating ). I said nothing about re-homing animal aggressive dogs, I simply answered the question why rescue groups have an interest to adopt out Pit Pull type dogs into the community - because there are so many in need. I also don’t see where I said that shelters and rescues are opposing groups. They often work in good synergy (sometimes not). But it’s simply a fact that about a million Pit Bull type dogs get put down in US shelters every year, the majority of them for lack of space/resources, because the shelter has a blanket no-adoption policy for those dogs, or because the community has BSL.
Yeah, of course the bigger picture of rescues is to “make the world a better place”, but this is not exactly a hard, achievable goal. You have to pick you battles. Like anything that is unregulated, there are really good, responsible rescues and there are others, the ones that make problematic choices, all the way down to hoarder type situations. A good rescue will screen dogs and humans carefully and try to make a good match that is safe for everyone involved. They will e.g. ask for consent from the HOA of the new owners, for vet references, check the fencing in the new home, etc. But it would be going a little too far to have to ask every neighbor on the block with a small dog whether they feel comfortable.
I’m sure you do. It must be like walking into a store where everything is your size. I’d envy you except that I remember the days when the same was true of dogs in general, including the herding types I love. And how I left each shelter upset because it tears out your soul to see the dogs you love standing in cages, without a person. And in those days, you knew most of those dogs were easy family pets. They used to euthanize the dogs who weren’t.
There’s nothing enviable about it. Like you, it breaks my heart, and I’m not sure why it is so unfathomable that I feel the same way about my dogs as you feel about yours. Most of the dogs in shelters are STILL good family pets, there are dogs everywhere that get adopted out and live in a family happily ever after. I live this every single day. But in the case of Pit Bull type dogs, the success is measured by the failures.
No, it is not easy to manage reactivity. I had a 35lb collie mix who was reactive in the old sense of being upset and barky when she saw other dogs, and it was not easy to manage her small, mild behavior. Managing a dog as strong as a pit bull would be much harder. Particularly when by ‘reactive’ you mean ‘wants very strongly to attack and kill dogs’ which is what so many people who burble about reactive pit bulls mean.
So we have a different experience. I find that especially in North America where there are leash laws in place everywhere it is quite easy to manage with some decent obedience. Depends a little bit on what your needs are, some dogs will never do well at dog parks. But any dog, no matter how “reactive”, can walk down the street on a loose leash without lunging, barking or whining.
Most Schutzhund clubs will be able to show you how, but I’d recommend one that works with positive reinforcement ;).
Considering that 99% of the time, when ‘something happens’ with a pit bull and a dog, the dog is the one who has an immediate life-threatening situation, that slant of perspective is utterly labored. It’s odd to me that pit bull owners have no qualms about expressing their very strong sense of being targeted and victimized, despite the rather spectacular circumstances which lead to them and their pets ending up needing FB pages demanding justice or GoFundMe sites to raise lawyer costs. When your bazooka oopsy goes bang, then yes, you may (if the victims are very persistent) be ‘targeted’ by animal control and after months and months of missed court dates and dangerous dog hearings and appeals and hysterical FB posts and marches by pit rescues and frantic calls to the Lexus Group, you may face the choice of spending a couple thousand dollars on dangerous dog insurance for Khaoz or surrending it for euthanization. It’s not exactly like the stormtroopers came and seized the shrinking child from its mother’s arms here.
Most interactions between dogs, Pit Bull type or otherwise, are not “immediate life-threatening situations”. It’s not like a Pit Bull type dog is either “completely fine with everything” or a “blood thirsty killer of all dogs”. Most are in between somewhere, like every dog.
The call was for dogs to be put down no matter the circumstances or severity of the incident, no questions asked, and I think that’s wrong.
Fwiw, I am not particularly sympathetic to owners of dogs that have done a lot of damage who end up crowdfunding for legal costs either. I don’t fund campaigns like that, and I also think most rescues don’t have the capacity to deal with high-profile cases like that.
I do however very much believe that before euthanizing a dog there needs to be some form of review/appeal process available that gives everyone - including the dog owner - a chance to be heard. Just take away and euthanize is not good enough.
I also think it’s a good idea for every dog owner to carry liabiity insureance for their dog, Pit Bull or not.
We have a case here right now of a dog (non Pit Bull) that went missing on a hike. The dog had an incident as a young dog years ago when he bit a person and was deemed a dangerous dog by the city. The owners say at the time the dog had just come out of rescue at the time, was fearful, and the bite didn’t break skin. The owners say they have since addressed the issue, the dog has lived in the community without incident and has been in a regular training program for over two years. Because the city’s dangerous dog label sticks lifelong, the owners regularly took the dog on hikes outside of town for exercise, which is where the dog got lost. The owners were asking people to not try to catch the dog, but call the owners in case of a sighting.
The narrative in the media is “there’s a vicious dog loose in the area, make sure you carry bear spray at all times”.
Of course it was a dumb, irresponsible thing to do of the owners to take any chance at all for their dog to get lost, especially with a label like that. But does that family and their dog really deserve to have their pet bear sprayed and/or shot because of this? Idk.
). I said nothing about re-homing animal aggressive dogs, I simply answered the question why rescue groups have an interest to adopt out Pit Pull type dogs into the community - because there are so many in need. I also don’t see where I said that shelters and rescues are opposing groups. They often work in good synergy (sometimes not). But it’s simply a fact that about a million Pit Bull type dogs get put down in US shelters every year, the majority of them for lack of space/resources, because the shelter has a blanket no-adoption policy for those dogs, or because the community has BSL.