My dogs and I were attacked by a pitt bull this morning (we're OK)

[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8897662]
Chows are also notorious. Martha Stewart has always impressed me (awed?) and I always thought it completely fitting that she favoured Chows. Unless you are a Martha Stewart in terms of sheer dominant personality, I doubt you should own a Chow.

So far, this list is looking like (in Urban areas) requiring leashes, muzzles and mandatory spay/neuter except by special license, and requiring owners to purchase at least $1M in liability :

  1. Pitbulls and dogs that look like pitbulls
  2. Shar Peis
  3. Chow Chow
  4. Cane Corso
  5. Mastiffs exceeding 15lbs
  6. Presa Canario
  7. Rottweiler
  8. Trained Hog Dog
  9. Trained Schutzhund dog
  10. GSD (?? Did we decide here? They might be self limiting due to the en vogue breeding practices)
  11. Akita
  12. Wolfhound (I added that, I lived in a city with a feral wolfhound problem. They were the
    worst crossed with malamutes.)

I’d be ok with this controlled legislation. But it needs to include some method of assessing “vicious” that doesn’t rely on waiting until a human is seriously injured. I feel like veterinarians could be involved here. And mandatory checkups for licensing. I also feel like off leash areas should be accessible only to people with licensed dogs, and fines for unlicensed dogs should exceed the purchase price of the animal.

Of course, people will be non compliant. Hopefully the crippling fines associated with violation will provide a deterrent.[/QUOTE]

I would add the Komondor to this list.

[QUOTE=Coanteen;8897881]
I’d be ok with more investigation as to pets, because even with a dog running loose which it shouldn’t be, it’s still possible the other animal started it. Yeah, if it’s proven the dog attacks other pets unprovoked, should also be destroyed. Hey, if your dog runs around attacking smaller pets that “look like prey” - contain/muzzle it, or kill it. Not hard.
But my bar for that is not as low as for attacking people.

Tbh your “lands on small dog” example made me LOL (sorry!). I mean it wouldn’t be funny for the little dog irl, but I wouldn’t destroy a dog for inadvertently landing on something. That’s not an attack, that’s just really bad luck.

But for ex the Montreal bylaw that was fought against as BSL (it was) also made provisions for all dogs, not just bullie-types. It made 2 classes, ‘at-risk’ and ‘dangerous’ - ‘at-risk’ is if they bite, and they need to be muzzled; 'dangerous is if they kill, and they need to be destroyed.

I’d drop the breed thing and up any dog that bites a person off its property to ‘dangerous’. On its own property one can quibble whether it should be ‘at-risk’, but the thing’s in a public space or someone else’s space and attacks a person, just freaking kill it*.

  • common-sense exemptions apply, say a vet did something unexpectedly painful and dog snaps, or its owner got attacked and dog is defending owner.[/QUOTE]

Ontario’s dog laws are the same, they just made a pit bull/pit bull type specific category under the entire dangerous dog act. I would assume because of the out of control breeding.

I see dogs of all breeds now wearing muzzles out in public since our dog laws were made much stricter…it’s a good thing…

[QUOTE=sisu27;8898494]

Scenario 2. One of my Dobes had a jaw injury. I took him to UofG vet school (he was already a regular because he was in the DCM study). They had a specialist that was recommended. He wants to x-ray. I ask that I help him to manipulate dog on table. He says no. I say muzzle him. Dog had no previous issues with anyone at all. Would lay on table for cardiologist and snooze while getting EKG etc. I just know that when you chest a Dobe to flip over they don’t love it. Anyhow I wait and wait. Vet comes roaring into waiting room and tells me to “come get my f’ing dog”. Seriously. I ask what went on and he tells me he bit the student/tech on the face. Well how the hell could that happen with a muzzled dog?!?!? I leave. I feel awful. I get a call from the cardiology department telling me what happened as per tech. He sedated dog, didn’t muzzle, didn’t wait for sedation to do much, had tech hold the dogs face/collar and he attempted to forcefully flip dog onto his side onto the table. Dog bit techs face. It was a bad bite and required plastic surgery. She did not hold the dog responsible. I don’t know what happened to the vet but I hope he was fired. Should that dog have then been added to this list? Should he have been euthanized? He never had another incident of aggression of any sort for the rest of his life.[/QUOTE]

This is why I always insisted on being present with any vet procedure being done with my King/Belgium Shepherd. I entered the vets office with my dog muzzled and the muzzle didn’t come off until we left the property.

I am surprised at the number of vets/techs that lose sight of the potential for any dog to bite, especially under medical circumstances. The old, “Oh, I work with animals all the time so I know animals”, is one of the most irresponsible and downright stupid statement I have ever heard.

Even with my strange people/animal aggressive cat, they say and attempt to do the same thing. I always take my cat in, stay with and restrain him at all times. When he was going in to be neutered I told the tech to let me go in the back to get him put in his carrier. She chuckled and looked at me like I was a moron and said she would get him. I stood there and waited, the entire waiting room could hear my cat’s howls of anger, she came back out full of bloody scratches and said, “You better go get your cat!” She acted like I was the person in the wrong and I reminded her that I did warn her and I did say that I should be the one to retrieve him. He was loose because he had escaped, the room was a total mess and as soon as he saw me he came to me directly and went straight into his carrier.

I never would have left anyone in control of my dog though, if they insisted I would tell them I didn’t need their services and went to a vet that would listen.

[QUOTE=ASBJumper;8898933]
It was not insane. You had your dog running off leash in the neighbourhood - this was YOUR BAD. You clearly tried to skew your story to make the animal-hater out to be the bad guy, but the way I see it, you had your dog off leash. And something happened. And there were consequences.

This is EXACTLY why you can’t enforce existing laws - every freaking dog owner makes excuses for stupid behaviour, until it escalates, and someone’s dog is maimed, killed, someone’s CHILD is maimed, killed. The idea is not to enforce laws AFTER a victim gets attacked, the idea is to prevent attacks from ever happening in the first place. Putting someone in jail AFTER their dog attacks and kills something/someone doesn’t bring the victim back to life, now does it?

Are you sh*tting me right now? THREE strikes? What if my toddler was the “first” strike? Are you saying that dog gets another free pass after disfiguring my kid? Wow, just wow… I.can’t.even…

If I had a nickel for every time I read a story about a dog attack in which the owner claimed “golly gee whiz, he/she’s NEVER done ANYthing like this before, i’m so shocked!” i’d be filthy rich.

Every dog owner claims to be responsible. Virtually every dog owner (with the exception of the ones who live on rural properties with known offenders, apparently) thinks their dogs are safe, and well-trained and would never attack. Until they do, and everyone is shocked.

So… sorry, but the whole “have dangerous dog laws in place because they wouldn’t apply to me” statement is worthless, especially to all of us who have seen/known previously reliable family dogs suddenly attack with no prior history of biting or aggression. The idea is not to punish owners AFTER those attacks, but to PREVENT them.[/QUOTE]

Agree 100%!!!

I don’t care what breed or size your dog is…if you do not have them properly restrained in public or properly enclosed at home, then you are an irresponsible owner.

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8899081]
I have been resisting contributing to this thread, but finally I cannot rest without knowing- what city did you live in that had a “feral wolfhound problem”?

Do you know whether these “feral wolfhounds” were AKC registered Irish Wolfhounds? Or we’re they big grey sighthound-looking dogs?

I ask because if this is true, I am sure the Irish Wolfhound Club of America (I am a former Board member) would be very concerned. We would also be concerned that someone has called for all Irish Wolfhounds to be muzzled in public and have mandatory spay/neutering.

I have never heard of such a recommendation and it would be strongly opposed by many.

Because of the resurgence of coyote populations in many areas, there have been some mixed breed sighthounds that are sometimes crossed with other breeds that are sometimes used to hunt coyotes. Might it be possible that this is what you were seeing?

If so, would you still recommend that all Irish Wolfhounds should be muzzled in public and subjected to mandatory spay/neuter?

As an AKC judge of Irish Wolfhounds, and having been an Irish Wolfhound owner for 45 years, and having had a breeding program where temperament is paramount, as it is for most Irish Wolfhound breeders, I strongly object to this characterization of the breed.

Any legal proceeding that attempted to implement this would be very strongly opposed by quite a number of Irish Wolfhound fanciers worldwide.[/QUOTE]

Because of the rampant and wide spread irresponsibility of dog owners in public…yes, I would insist your Wolfhound be properly restrained and muzzled while in public.

If the good has to suffer a little bit in order to wipe out the bad…that is a step, as a responsible dog owner, that I am willing to take.

[QUOTE=pezk;8899122]
Then you know nothing about well trained Schuzhund dogs, or police dogs, since the training is very very similiar. You do know that police dogs go home with their handlers and are a part of the family much of the time. Military dogs are being returned with their handlers to live in families and communities. The difference between Schuzhund dogs and police dogs are that the Schuzhund dogs are doing it for fun. Its a game. Police dogs arent playing a game. Are you going to forbid all police dogs and military dogs from living in residential communities just because something could happen? Or are you just going to discriminate against everyone else instead?[/QUOTE]

It happens even with the best trained dogs.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/police-dogs-bites-calgary-boy-charges-1.3638739

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8899624]
Yes, an Irish Wolfhound could do a great deal of damage to a person.

That is why they have been selected for generations to have a great deal of inhibition of aggression towards humans, specifically because, they might hunt large prey animals, but we don’t want them to be remotely aggressive to humans.

In the rare cases of it, it is most often a brain tumor and universally within the breed, euthanasia is called for.

This breed, and Newfoundlands, are about the least likely to show aggression to humans of any breed of dogs. It is simply not tolerated.[/QUOTE]

I had a purebred Newfie. Yes, under normal circumstances they are probably less likely to show aggression towards humans than your Wolfhounds. But if he saw what “he thought” was a perceived threat, the gloves came off. Which is why he was properly restrained and muzzled in public.

[QUOTE=DogIsMyCopilot;8901242]

Surely, if it’s no big deal to muzzle and leash your big dog in public at all times, it shouldn’t be a big deal for small dog owners either, right? End of problem, sorry for those who never did anything wrong, but surely you’re willing to take one for the team in the interest of public safety.[/QUOTE]

I couldn’t agree more with this.

All dogs, regardless of size or breed should be properly restrained and muzzled in public. Anything less is just pure irresponsibility.

It would have to be all or none, really. I hate to be argumentative but I would be adverse to muzzle my 20lb dog if my neighbor did not or would not muzzle his 70lb aggressive dog that he had a habit of failing to contain/restrain. Not only would that make my dog a sitting duck anytime we left the house, but a sitting duck that would be completely unable to defend himself in a worst-case scenario. Little dogs are already at a huge disadvantage in an encounter with a large, aggressive dog-at-large; refer to earlier posted horrific link, they don’t need their sole, woefully inadequate defense to be taken away from them too.

[QUOTE=Sswor;8903751]
It would have to be all or none, really. I hate to be argumentative but I would be adverse to muzzle my 20lb dog if my neighbor did not or would not muzzle his 70lb aggressive dog that he had a habit of failing to contain/restrain. Not only would that make my dog a sitting duck anytime we left the house, but a sitting duck that would be completely unable to defend himself in a worst-case scenario. Little dogs are already at a huge disadvantage in an encounter with a large, aggressive dog-at-large; refer to earlier posted horrific link, they don’t need their sole, woefully inadequate defense to be taken away from them too.[/QUOTE]

It has to be all in my opinion.

I had my large dog muzzled in public 100% of the time. He was approached/attacked several times by small dogs while he was muzzled. He couldn’t defend himself with his teeth so he would knock the small dog to the ground and hold it down with his front legs and chest.

He went home with blood and bites on his legs from these little dogs. This was before the time that our dangerous dog law was revamped and really took a step up. If it were to happen to me now I would be on the phone demanding the offending little dogs be seized and the law to take care of the negligent owners.

Canadian Trotter-That story is outrageous. They are assigning another dog to an officer that can’t keep the dogs contained, on at least two occasions, and the dog will probably be resold to another police force after an unprovoked attack on a child! That makes me sick. That’s just as bad as any other pet owner making lame excuses about their dogs roaming loose, and attacking without cause. That is totally irresponsible.

However, with the sue for everything mentality in the U.S. When (and in my view it’s not if, but when) that K-9 is resold, and nails some poor person without provocation, then the police force will be sued for millions.

[QUOTE=CanadianTrotter;8903761]
It has to be all in my opinion.

I had my large dog muzzled in public 100% of the time. He was approached/attacked several times by small dogs while he was muzzled. He couldn’t defend himself with his teeth so he would knock the small dog to the ground and hold it down with his front legs and chest.

He went home with blood and bites on his legs from these little dogs. This was before the time that our dangerous dog law was revamped and really took a step up. If it were to happen to me now I would be on the phone demanding the offending little dogs be seized and the law to take care of the negligent owners.[/QUOTE]

Seriously calling for the muzzling of all dogs in public?

Seems more than a bit extreme.

Have you considered that there might be a phobia of dogs?

Perhaps consultation with a mental health professional might be considered.

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8904295]
Seriously calling for the muzzling of all dogs in public?

Seems more than a bit extreme.

Have you considered that there might be a phobia of dogs?

Perhaps consultation with a mental health professional might be considered.[/QUOTE]

Whoops did not mean this aimed at you personally.

[QUOTE=CanadianTrotter;8903591]
Back before pit bulls/pit bull types became popular, overbred and overpopulated, the Shepherd, Dobe and Rottie all had their time in the spotlight as “dog of choice”. During those times none of those breeds bit, attacked, maimed or killed the large amount that pit bulls/pit bull types have during their time in the spotlight.[/QUOTE]

Those numbers I’d like to see.

When I was a kid in the 80s, it wasn’t a particularly rare event that someone got bitten by a dog.
I remember several kids’ books and cartoons where people got bit in the butt by dogs for bad / dumb behavior, and several where kids got chased by bulls. It seemed like a pretty reasonable scenario at the time.
The auto salvage lot in our city had two GSDs running loose on the property for protection and everyone knew not to get too close to the fence or you’d be in real trouble.
At that time, when two dogs were fighting, the common belief was that they needed to “make it out amongst themselves”. Our family dog (a pretty docile herding type female) got bitten several times, once pretty badly. That’s just the way it was.
Nowadays you’d get your dog seized and sued for that.

[QUOTE=CanadianTrotter;8903737]
I couldn’t agree more with this.

All dogs, regardless of size or breed should be properly restrained and muzzled in public. Anything less is just pure irresponsibility.[/QUOTE]

It was actually meant more tongue-in-cheek than serious when I wrote this.
But you know what, if a community really has a serious problem, IF they have the numbers to show it, IF there are already properly enforced leash laws in place, IF it was decided that more stringent regulations are necessary in a thoughtful, democratic process where all interest groups were heard, IF there is a proper plan in place to enforce the new legislation and a system to measure the outcome, then I would be on board too.
But unfortunately, most laws get passed in a bout of populist actionism, with no thought given to how they can be enforced and what the outcome should be.

In the course of this thread, I have gained some understanding for the position of people like sswor, having a small dog and feeling scared and threatened by loose larger dogs. I still don’t think BSL is the answer to the problem, but I can relate to her worries and maybe I’d feel the same way if I were in her situation.

Other people on this thread, however, I feel like I live in a completely different world.
Honestly, if I were concerned enough to muzzle my dogs at all times in public and isolate them from my children and the family at home, cause it is the only way I can guarantee that they won’t maul or kill someone out of nowhere, I wouldn’t have them. That would be a really stressful and unsatisfying experience for me.

I have my dogs for companionship, I take them hiking and to the barn and snuggle up with them at night to watch a movie. My three year old son plays with them and feeds them and learns how to give them commands and teach them tricks.
I pick dogs that suit my lifestyle, an even temperament and stable nerves are very important to me. I put good obedience training on all of them, our yard is securely fenced, I obey leash laws and pick up the poop. I never leave my toddler and my dogs alone together. I make sure no one and no dog has to be in contact with my dogs if he/she doesn’t want to.
My female has been through several lengthy and painful medical procedures and surgeries without ever mauling a vet or tech.
Of course, when a dog is new and you(g) just get to know each other, you(g) err on the side of caution, but after 6+ years of living with them I think I have a pretty good idea of what my dogs can handle and what their limitations are.
I feel that this has to be enough.

Ontario must be a pretty dangerous place if there is really a need for all dogs to be muzzled all of the time, seems like the 11 years of BSL haven’t worked out all that well then. Reported dog bites in Toronto are at an all time high, despite all the restrictions.

We are all on this board cause we are dealing with horses. The risk of dying in a horse related accident is many, many times higher than being mauled to death by a dog. According to an article in “The Horse”, there are about 100 riding related fatalities a year, and 10-20 fold more traumatic brain injuries per 7 million riders in the US, compared to ~30 dog related fatalities per year per 78 million dogs in the US. That’s a factor of ~ 30, and it doesn’t even account for the non-riding horse related accidents or for the fact that we spend many more hours wih our dogs than our horses. I am MUCH more hesitant to put my toddler on a horse than have him live with my dogs. But we all decide to take that risk.

The risk from dogs is in no relation to the measures you are calling for.

Every dog must be muzzled in public? I’m afraid i cant get onboard with that. More need to be muzzled in public, that’s for sure. But not every dog is vicious, not every owner irresponsible. That seems like a solution in search of problem considering how many positive interactions between dogs/dog owners and the public occur every day. Easy to focus on the bad and ignore the good.

Unfortunately, we can create laws and regulations out the kazoo to try to avoid and preempt every possible bad event. But life just isnt like that. No such thing as 100% safety in this world, and if there was, it wouldn’t be a very fun place. Tragedies occur, and reasonable regulations can minimize them. But extreme measures like muzzling all dogs dont solve the problem because guess what, the irresponsible owners will ignore it. So problem not solved and good dogs/owners penalized.

I’m not onboard with muzzling every dog, but I think that is about the equivalent to the concept that every dog is same and it’s not the breed, somehow adding up to a belief that therefore there is no issue regarding dog attacks.

For a bit of levity

[QUOTE=Sswor;8901429]
That’s why it would need to be electrified. ZAP at first touch. The spikes would just add a satisfying and confidence-building appearance. I think there is a market here…[/QUOTE]

You mean this? https://www.coyotevest.com/

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;8904794]
You mean this? https://www.coyotevest.com/[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this link! The photos of dogs rocking the vests are awesome:D.

[QUOTE=CanadianTrotter;8903737]
I couldn’t agree more with this.

All dogs, regardless of size or breed should be properly restrained and muzzled in public. Anything less is just pure irresponsibility.[/QUOTE]

Why have a dog with such an unstable temperament?

While my dogs are trained for lure coursing and fun racing and know how to wear muzzles, I would not and do not have them wear muzzles ‘in public’.

I would not keep a dog that was any sort of unpredictable biter, fear biter, etc.

Call me irresponsible.

I have had plenty of dogs in my adult life. Zero bites.