My horse hates the saddles that fit him. Help!

[SMRaven]

Hello all. Back with more saddle questions and woes. My current horse and I are going through the ringer with saddle fit.

When he’s in the wrong saddle, he is a completely different animal and VERY “vocal” about his dislike and he will become sore in a matter of days as a result. When he’s happy with the saddle, he is a perfect angel, and his back is not sore. If I swap out the saddle mid-ride, his behavior changes immediately. Our vet has given him multiple levels of examination, watched him undersaddle and on the ground, taken back x-rays, and there is nothing medically we can find that would be causing the stark difference.
The problem with all of this is that the saddles he “likes”, don’t technically fit him from a saddle fitter’s perspective. We’ve tried foam-flocked, wool-flocked, and a wide variety of brands via independent saddle fitters and specific brand representatives.

Saddles we have tried:
CWD (tried the Classic, Mademoiselle, and 2Gs with mixed results)
Antares (tried the Evolution, Classique, and Contact. he liked the Evolution but I did not)
Devoucoux (tried the Biarritz Lab and Biarritz O, he hated both)
Butet
Amerigo
Forestier
Voltaire
Equipe
Loxley
County
Prestige

I don’t even know where to go at this point. When a saddle fitter has found a saddle that technically fits him, he reacts negatively. The saddle he goes best in is a CWD 2Gs that currently belongs to my trainer, and doesn’t “fit” him perfectly, but he is happy in it. Unfortunately, that isn’t a saddle I can purchase. I have a CWD of my own that I have had re-paneled to fit him, and it still doesn’t work.

Would appreciate any and all advice! I am open to anything at this point - just trying to figure out what others would do in this scenario.

[CBoylen]

Ride the horse in what he goes well in and thank Jesus he tells you so clearly, saving you thousands of dollars?

[Sarah616]

Exactly this. Horses don’t read the rule book on what’s good for them. You can try to do things perfectly for them to the letter, but if he’s telling you he doesn’t like something so clearly, listen to him. I feel the same way about feed, you can say all you want “this is the healthiest feed for my horse” but if they won’t eat it, it’s still not doing you any good. I would find the saddle that you’re able to purchase that he likes best and go with it, to hell with whether it “technically” fits or not.

[albytb]

If you’re not confident that you can replicate the CWD he likes then I would go back to the Antarès Evolution—those are very popular and easy to find. You might just have to suck it up if you don’t like it haha

[beowulf]

It took me a bit to learn that the Princess and Pea reaction to fitted saddles can sometimes be a symptom and not a direct cause. What did his back rads look like when you took them? Any remodeling at all?

I have had 2 horses in my lifetime that did better in saddles that did not technically fit on paper. Both did better with a saddle that was wider than ideal. I couldn’t tell you why on the first one - but on the second one, I believe it’s related to his kissing spine.

I understand not being able to buy the saddle that he prefers. Your trainer wouldn’t sell it to you? If I were you, I’d ride in it for 2 months regularly before deciding it’s The One. The Honeymoon phase in saddles is sometimes hard to predict.

BTDT, with the 1st gelding I mentioned I rode him bareback for the year (!) it took to find him a good fit. Gave me a good seat but he also bucked a lot. That behavior stopped all together about a month into the new saddle (Kieffer Wein) - which was nothing spectacular and cost less than all the reflockings and refittings I paid for with his past saddles. And the second gelding has a Black Country Vinci with serge panels and I think it makes a big difference for him.

Saddles settle and change minutely over time and for some horses it’s a big deal. That’s also how some people are left holding a custom saddle that doesn’t fit, based on a trial for a demo saddle that is already broken in or, has seen and endured god knows what.

I ordered the exact replica of my other horse’s saddle (for Gelding #2) and when it first came, I couldn’t believe how differently it fit out the box. But I knew in this particular case, that it would settle - and it did.

I’ve seen people buy exact replicas of a saddle they’ve tried only for it not to work months down the road, for reasons unrelated to settling. Sometimes the short term relief of a new saddle not bothering active pain points makes it appear the horse likes it better - but in reality, that new saddle doesn’t fit any better and down the road causes similar issues.

It’s not that people are dumb - saddle fitting is as much a highly skilled art form as it is having an expert understanding of biomechanical, sprinkled with a good eye to predict the future - with horses we all know that’s almost impossible. And there’s a lot of shady saddle sellers out there looking to dupe an owner who just wants what’s best for her horse.

There isn’t anything remarkably transformative about the CWD 2Gs that isn’t in many other saddles. For a $9k saddle it should at least have a built in wine cooler or something

[knic]

What is incorrect about the fit he likes? Maybe that will help us make suggestions on why he fits better.

[IPEsq]

Unless your saddle fitter has xray vision and can see everything that’s going on while the horse is in motion, just listen to what the horse is telling you, especially if you can see he isn’t getting sore from the saddle he likes.

Maybe you can find a used CWD that is the same as your trainer’s?

[Demerara_Stables]

Add me to the camp of “if he doesn’t like it, it doesn’t fit him.” I have a wonderful fitter that puts horses in what she thinks fits them but always, always listens to the horse. My mare goes in something that “shouldn’t” fit her but she likes it the best.

I also own two of the exact same model and size of saddle and they fit totally differently. Unfortunately, I think tracking down something that is similar to your trainer’s saddle shape and seeing how he reacts will be your best bet.

[RedHorses]

My second horse was so sensitive to saddle fit that in less than a month he would develop white hairs from three 20 minute rides per week. He was not very obvious about an ill fitting saddle, which taught me to pay close attention to what he was showing me.

Further experiences with other horses has cemented the idea that the horse gets the final say in how well a saddle fits, and I have multiple times pushed back on professional saddle fitters’ determination that the saddle in question fits, and been proven right after they tweaked the fit a little more. My current saddle fitter stopped questioning me years ago and was able to keep my hypersensitive fourth horse happy through many changes in body shape.

Saddle fitters are guessing (often with a lot of experience, but it’s still a guess) how the saddle will fit the horse in motion. Listen to the horse.

[Pico_Banana]

Totally agree with listening to the horse. But, if you want to try some different saddles, the direction I would go in are the ones with more forgiveness in the shape/tree/panels. Specifically, either a Tad Coffin or an EQ.

I have a princess and the pea mare and she likes both of these saddles. I’ve ridden her in a few Tads and they were technically too narrow but she liked them anyway. I currently ride her in an EQ and she LOVES it. So much softer in her back than any other saddle. And before the EQ we were in a Black Country, which she did really well in and they are known to be very horse friendly, but she really does noticeably better in the EQ.

But my point is that some horses prefer something other than a “traditional” saddle fit. It’s great that we have so many options these days.

[mmeqcenter]

@SMRaven

The problem with all of this is that the saddles he “likes”, don’t technically fit him from a saddle fitter’s perspective.

As with the others, I don’t think the “saddle fitter’s perspective” matters if the horse is telling you something different.

My mare always measures a MW when the fitter is out.
My mare will always go in a Wide because she has made it crystal clear on multiple occasions that the MW is too tight.

Use what he’s comfortable in.

[SMRaven]

Thank you everyone for the replies - I really appreciate everyone’s perspective! I want to add a few points for clarity because I don’t think I was completely clear in my original post.

Like others have mentioned, I am SUPER grateful that my horse tells me what makes him uncomfortable! As frustrating as this process has been, that has been the best/easiest part.

He does have a very mild spinal abnormality between his 15th and 17th vertebrae, but thankfully we have imaging from 4 years, 5 years, and last year at 9 years and there has been zero change. While I do think this contributes to some saddles working and some causing him discomfort, I wouldn’t say that there is a true medical reason at play here and my vet agrees. To comment on my horse’s physiology, he has large, wide shoulders but average width/height withers and he is not overly wide through his back, though his back is longer than average. The saddles he seems to prefer have extra extra wide shoulder clearance (RT+ in CWD) and flatter/wider panels across his back. He goes well in both M and MW trees, but it seems to be the panel shape that really matters for his comfort.

The main “problem” with all of this is that my current saddle does not fit him and I do need to buy something else, and quickly - but what to look for? Since he doesn’t really match any specs on paper, it is still like finding a needle in a haystack and continuing to just trial saddle after saddle to see what sticks. My trainers saddle is not for sale, and so far I have not had luck finding a used model in the same configuration but that is still my goal as I continue to look for other options.

Again - I appreciate the feedback and suggestions. If anyone has any other ideas to throw my way I will take them!

[SMRaven]

I do have a different Antares rep coming out this weekend and bringing a few more/different Evolution saddles to try - my horse really did like that one so I hope we can find something.

[SMRaven]

Thank you! We have not tried either of these - I will reach out to the saddle fitters I’ve been working with and see if they have one we could look at.

[Lost_Shoe]

Ideas for saddles that you haven’t tried yet that are designed to be comfortable for horses with wide shoulders:

1. Schleese Levitar (this is a new saddle that just came out last year)
2. Peter Horobin (popular in Australia and are only recently available in the states)
3. EQ (the new jumping saddle only comes in a monoflap, and also does not have a traditional appearance, so they will likely not fit the bill here; I mention it because people I know with KS horses have been satisfied with this saddle)

[trakehners]

@SMRaven

The saddles he seems to prefer have extra extra wide shoulder clearance (RT+ in CWD) and flatter/wider panels across his back.

Have you tried saddles with shoulder freedom panel configurations? Everyone who’s touched my horse (vets, chiropractor, saddle fitters) has commented on his rather impressive shoulder. I jump him in an Erreplus with their SL (shoulder-free) panel that allows my saddle flap to flex at the shoulder, so he has that freedom of movement even though my saddle has an extra-forward flap. I do notice a difference with him in jump saddles that have standard panels in that his movement is tighter/shorter. My saddle is a monoflap but I know they offer that panel option for their dual flap saddles as well.

Photo evidence that it flexes with him/his shoulders to the point where it’s put a crease in the knee roll (I hadn’t cleaned my saddle in a while, please excuse the dirt):

[Demerara_Stables]

@Lost_Shoe

• Peter Horobin (popular in Australia and are only recently available in the states)
• EQ (the new jumping saddle only comes in a monoflap, and also does not have a traditional appearance, so they will likely not fit the bill here; I mention it because people I know with KS horses have been satisfied with this saddle)

I’d echo these brands. I’ve worked with both of them with hard to fit horses. The EQ is great because you can adjust it yourself to find just the right fit. The Horobins make every horse that I’ve put them on happier.

[wanderlust]

@SMRaven

To comment on my horse’s physiology, he has large, wide shoulders but average width/height withers and he is not overly wide through his back, though his back is longer than average. The saddles he seems to prefer have extra extra wide shoulder clearance (RT+ in CWD) and flatter/wider panels across his back. He goes well in both M and MW trees, but it seems to be the panel shape that really matters for his comfort.

I have one with a large shoulder and medium withers but is very wide below them - there’s just no concavity at all, and then a high flat back with very wide spine/ligaments.

There are two things that seem to make a difference for her. First is the width of the gullet and channel - she needs a lot of room on either side of her withers and spine, and most french saddles are not wide enough either through the headplate or the channel, so rub right up against the sides of her withers or sit on the ligaments.

The second is the shape of the gullet but also the rail angle of the tree behind the gullet. She needs more of a U shape than A shape head plate/tree points, but then the rails behind the headplate need to be relatively wide and flat, rather than steeply angled. I think a lot of “fitters” miss the rail angle part of the equation.

[CHT]

If the horse’s reaction to a slightly uncomfortable saddle is that severe, I would guess he has another underlying issue - it may or may not be his back. I would consider neurological or feet. Chronic pain can lead to the brain prioritizing any slight discomfort as being PAIN rather than just a new/different sensation and may be why he is over-reactive to the different saddles.

I also agree with the idea that fitters tend to fit a stationary horse, and don’t take into account how the horse carries himself when ridden, so your fitter might be the issue if they are trying to fit a horse standing at rest and not taking into account how his outline changes in work.

Even so though, my experience is that horses that are THAT sensitive to saddle fit, have something else going on. Good luck. In my horse’s case it was a broken neck. For two clients, it was 1) navicular and 2) bad stifles.

[SMRaven]

Thanks for the insight.
With the amount of times we’ve had the vet look at him, I can’t imagine we’ve missed anything like this. He was x-rayed pretty extensively last year during our PPE and I continue to have the vet look at him every 1-2 months for general soundness both on the ground and undersaddle. But, that being said, we’ve never spent any extra time looking at the stifles for any reason and I don’t actually recall if we have x-rays of his neck. I’ll discuss with my vet next time I see her.

I agree that it is odd for it to be such a drastic behavioral change, he really is a perfect gentleman and willingly works all parts of his body with no indication of anything being “off” when he is in a saddle that he likes.