buck22, I think these types are our best teachers, but do not sell yourself short … you DID listen to him.
That puts you way ahead in the horsemanship game. You have learned volumes and hopefully will be able to help others (people and horses).
I lose my patience with the people some times.
[QUOTE=EqTrainer;6272343]
OP, I didnt say you DID whack him. I said from what I can tell from your posts, he has not necessarily been started correctly and therefore you should NOT whack him until he has been.
You are assuming this horse understands the aids. I am not so sure he does. I have started lots of horses but maybe more importantly for you, i have restarted many too, and horses who dont go forward get the refresher course before a whooping. Look… I dont mind coming to Jesus AFTER I have done my homework. 99% of the time, once they understand, they are happy to comply. BUT if you go after a horse before they understand WHY you are doing it, the result is unpredictable at best and dangerous at worst… AND they still havent learned anything at all but to be scared of you.[/QUOTE]
Yes you are probably right. I do think maybe he does not understand what I am asking %100 of the time, he is still pretty green.
Buck22…thank you for sharing your story. I will be discussing options when the vet is out next month.
I will keep you guys posted.
[QUOTE=buck22;6272520]
There is no guarantee that someone else won’t try to ride him down the road, he’s a cute mover and great jumper too, too much temptation. I suffer so much guilt over trying to ride a horse with a broken back, I cannot bear even the possibility of him having to live this sad story all over again at someone else’s ignorance. So he can never leave me.
He taught me about nutrition, he taught me about saddle fit, he taught me about patience and he taught me a lot about myself. He’s now teaching me how to teach a horse how to drive. :lol:[/QUOTE]
I wish there were more horse owners like you in the world ;).
I’ve dabbled in driving and i love it. I hope that works out for you!
After playing the vid, the good news it the horse stands to be mounted! But, moving on I don’t understand the ‘training’.
First, Imho it is lunging problematically. Imho lunging is first standing in one place, lungeing from a caveson (NOT the bit), then with s.r. attached to caveson, and establishing even bending and reactions to the aids (including driving aids). Horse should stay between the hands (bended elbows) with one hand pointed at horses mouth, and the one with the whip pointed at the croup (or shoulder if the horse is falling in). Lifted whip means go, dropped whips means who. The horse needs methodical aids.
It is very typical of a young horse to try to refuse the aids, but the question is what the rider is doing.
In any case, after lunge work, why not work in hand? Teaching the horse how to respond to the bridle, how to do mobile toF (both walking beside them and from touches of the whip where the leg would be touching).
Moving on: When mounted, ask once with the leg, and perhaps once with a bat (noise) on the shoulder. I would NOT use a whip (behind the leg) since it is not educated to this. If the horse doesn’t move you have several choices: 1. stand there UNTIL the horse does move (an old training technique…whethers its 10 minutes or hours) and rewrd the horse. 2. Either lift the reins (a lot) until the horse moves (it will/it has to) or bend the horse until it steps sideways and use that. 3 Tap the horse on the shoulder with a bat (which makes noise). 4. Have ground support (someone on the ground) to back up your aid with a lunge whip ‘threat’ 5 For sure one does not use MORE leg, do not use the leg a second time UNTIL it STARTS moving. 5 For sure the rider must not release contact if the horse is, just keep the connection (no leg/no release). If they stop backing then ask, but no reward for stop.
Once mounted the rider must be in better balance, staying light seated on a young horse. The horse SHOULD be up and open, which he is. The only hollowing/resistance he offers is the result of the low hands and the steady pressures. The straight line from elbow to mouth must be kept, and this might mean raising a lot at times. Secondly, and opening (inside) rein helps the horse find the ‘funnel’ of movement rather than holding the inside rein (which causes the horse to drift outward).
IF the horse does a toF, then use it: bend, touch with leg, use that to move to walk or trot.
Horses become ‘looky’ (seemingly ‘afraid’) when they are overwhelmed by problematic aids. So that is a rider responsibility to change.
For sure the horse needs to be allowed to be more active(ly moving). Post bigger to get bigger strides. Put in some poles to keep the horse’s attention.
It is NOT about riding assertively, it is about riding with intention, knowing that it is not more aid which is needed, but knowing how to have timing.
If the back (behind the saddle) is not sore, then chances are there is no need for gastroguard/etc.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;6273613]
Yes you are probably right. I do think maybe he does not understand what I am asking %100 of the time, he is still pretty green.
Buck22…thank you for sharing your story. I will be discussing options when the vet is out next month.
I will keep you guys posted.:)[/QUOTE]
Good for you. You are best to give a horse like this the benefit of the doubt. After reviewing what he should know, if you dont find any holes, he will most likely respond well to a more forceful aid. Also by doing this systematically from the ground up, you will better learn what his natural responses are and what it takes to mold them.
If you do find holes, then you can fill them in, retrain his other responses and move on.
Also FWIW, he does not necessarily look NQR to me… He does look tense enough to look very stiff. Fear and tension beget soreness. This is why relaxation is on the bottom of the training scale.
I suspect a lot of the responses you have gotten from people to just whack him, came from people who have not started a variety of horses. If you have, you know that what you see on the videos is not normal and not desireable and not fixable by whacking. I am all for whacking if appropriate but this is not the time. IMO the idea that young horses must just go forward is grossly misunderstood and misused to the detriment of so many horses… If it were true, there wouldnt be so many messed up horses in the world, because dog knows people sure love to run them around willy nilly thinking they are forward. Replace the word forward with balanced and the picture becomes clearer IME. Forward is one component of balanced… But not the only one.
Good luck!
[QUOTE=EqTrainer;6273924]
I suspect a lot of the responses you have gotten from people to just whack him, came from people who have not started a variety of horses. If you have, you know that what you see on the videos is not normal and not desireable and not fixable by whacking. I am all for whacking if appropriate but this is not the time. IMO the idea that young horses must just go forward is grossly misunderstood and misused to the detriment of so many horses… If it were true, there wouldnt be so many messed up horses in the world, because dog knows people sure love to run them around willy nilly thinking they are forward. Replace the word forward with balanced and the picture becomes clearer IME. Forward is one component of balanced… But not the only one.
Good luck![/QUOTE]
This. I see so much horrible advice given on here (this thread and the forums in general) when it comes to green horses and babies, (or heck even training in general) and 9 times out of 10, it’s from people who have never started a horse.
if no one else has said it - get some qualified professional help.
[QUOTE=ideayoda;6273901]
After playing the vid, the good news it the horse stands to be mounted! But, moving on I don’t understand the ‘training’.
First, Imho it is lunging problematically. Imho lunging is first standing in one place, lungeing from a caveson (NOT the bit), then with s.r. attached to caveson, and establishing even bending and reactions to the aids (including driving aids). Horse should stay between the hands (bended elbows) with one hand pointed at horses mouth, and the one with the whip pointed at the croup (or shoulder if the horse is falling in). Lifted whip means go, dropped whips means who. The horse needs methodical aids.
It is very typical of a young horse to try to refuse the aids, but the question is what the rider is doing.
In any case, after lunge work, why not work in hand? Teaching the horse how to respond to the bridle, how to do mobile toF (both walking beside them and from touches of the whip where the leg would be touching).
Moving on: When mounted, ask once with the leg, and perhaps once with a bat (noise) on the shoulder. I would NOT use a whip (behind the leg) since it is not educated to this. If the horse doesn’t move you have several choices: 1. stand there UNTIL the horse does move (an old training technique…whethers its 10 minutes or hours) and rewrd the horse. 2. Either lift the reins (a lot) until the horse moves (it will/it has to) or bend the horse until it steps sideways and use that. 3 Tap the horse on the shoulder with a bat (which makes noise). 4. Have ground support (someone on the ground) to back up your aid with a lunge whip ‘threat’ 5 For sure one does not use MORE leg, do not use the leg a second time UNTIL it STARTS moving. 5 For sure the rider must not release contact if the horse is, just keep the connection (no leg/no release). If they stop backing then ask, but no reward for stop.
Once mounted the rider must be in better balance, staying light seated on a young horse. The horse SHOULD be up and open, which he is. The only hollowing/resistance he offers is the result of the low hands and the steady pressures. The straight line from elbow to mouth must be kept, and this might mean raising a lot at times. Secondly, and opening (inside) rein helps the horse find the ‘funnel’ of movement rather than holding the inside rein (which causes the horse to drift outward).
IF the horse does a toF, then use it: bend, touch with leg, use that to move to walk or trot.
Horses become ‘looky’ (seemingly ‘afraid’) when they are overwhelmed by problematic aids. So that is a rider responsibility to change.
For sure the horse needs to be allowed to be more active(ly moving). Post bigger to get bigger strides. Put in some poles to keep the horse’s attention.
It is NOT about riding assertively, it is about riding with intention, knowing that it is not more aid which is needed, but knowing how to have timing.
If the back (behind the saddle) is not sore, then chances are there is no need for gastroguard/etc.[/QUOTE]
^ This IMO is the soundess advice in this thread also Ponysize’s comment just before is right on the ball. You must have experienced starting and/or riding many young horses to know the benefits of correct discipline - exactly when to employ it and how.
Please get a more knowledgeable trainer who has had young horse experience to help you for a bit. I know its costly but perhaps going with William to a barn for a time and giving him consistent, daily work with a pair of eyes on the ground interspersed with a more knowledgeable rider in the saddle will help you learn and definately become more clear to William.
Good luck and FWIW - I like him!!
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;6270564]
Here is the link ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etoW23nn7SM[/QUOTE]
something is off in his hind end.
[QUOTE=belgianWBLuver;6274065]
^ This IMO is the soundess advice in this thread also Ponysize’s comment just before is right on the ball. You must have experienced starting and/or riding many young horses to know the benefits of correct discipline - exactly when to employ it and how.
Please get a more knowledgeable trainer who has had young horse experience to help you for a bit. I know its costly but perhaps going with William to a barn for a time and giving him consistent, daily work with a pair of eyes on the ground interspersed with a more knowledgeable rider in the saddle will help you learn and definately become more clear to William.
Good luck and FWIW - I like him!![/QUOTE]
That’s the thing, why I came here because I am experienced in starting young horses…many different and difficult ones with success. I am not an upper level dressage rider, I mostly event but am always working on improving my dressage. Never started one quite like William. Thus why I have yet to WHACK him…and turned to the BB for help
@ideayoda thank you for the advice, very interesting…regarding the lunging in the video; this was not a working lunge session. More of a 5 minute warm up just to get out any bucks should there be any. There have not been any since he started work again. I will do more in hand work with him now as I have been suggested this quite a bit.
@mbm - we are having 2 lessons this weekend with my trainer (who is amazing!). Also, I have to disagree that he is off in the hind end. He is very sound but also unbalanced.
@Eqtrainer - thank you. Relaxation is our goal and I will be focusing on this more than ever.
I appreciate the help:yes:
May I say something - and I mean it in the most positive way -it does not mean you are not experienced if you seek the help of another more experienced horseman when you run into a dead end with a youngster. In the video your lunging methods suggest you do not know how to properly lunge or you did not want to take the time to either borrow someone else’s lunge whip to lunge William. You also have not bothered to correctly attach the lunge line through the bit and over the pole, or even to use a proper lunge caveson with the line attached to the nose ring. You must never cut corners with greenbeans as it leads to confusion on their part and improper training.
He is obviously very stiff ridden and so, I might say, are you. Yes you must seek relaxation and release your hand a little on his mouth. Yes releasing your hands is scarey and can encourage him to bolt or even buck. However if your “core” is strong and your center of gravity is in exactly the correct spot, and your legs especially your calfs are steady on his sides, you may release him and at the same time keep him steady. A really good instructor can show you how to do this. It is a little les evident to receive good instruction on a forum, if you know what I mean. Good luck with him
OP… All it means, as the above poster says, is that you are ready to learn MORE. Good for you… Enjoy the journey.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;6274489]
Also, I have to disagree that he is off in the hind end. He is very sound but also unbalanced.
:[/QUOTE]
mmmmmm… unbalanced, yes… but he is stiff as a board and not bending the joints in his hind legs as he should be.
there is a reason why he is tensing everything… find that reason and you might find the answer.
i think, if this were my horse, i would do as ideayoda says and improve the lunging, get him to work more over the back and see if that helps.
glad to hear you are getting lessons…
Try sitting on him bareback with an assistant near to see if he will move with nothing on… It might help ruling out saddle, girth, padding etc. Someone else here had a horse with a broken wither, I know extreme & doesn’t make sense since you have been able to ride, but maybe something to consider or shoulder-rib soreness
Lungeing is NEVER to get bucks out, that is not its use. It is to warm up a horse, connect it properly, get a steady tempo, develop lateral flexibility.
For me the horse is irregular because the line taken and the low hands create a problematic unsteadily connection for the hind legs to step into.
WHAT in hand work are you planning?
[QUOTE=belgianWBLuver;6274753]
May I say something - and I mean it in the most positive way -it does not mean you are not experienced if you seek the help of another more experienced horseman when you run into a dead end with a youngster. In the video your lunging methods suggest you do not know how to properly lunge or you did not want to take the time to either borrow someone else’s lunge whip to lunge William. You also have not bothered to correctly attach the lunge line through the bit and over the pole, or even to use a proper lunge caveson with the line attached to the nose ring. You must never cut corners with greenbeans as it leads to confusion on their part and improper training.
He is obviously very stiff ridden and so, I might say, are you. Yes you must seek relaxation and release your hand a little on his mouth. Yes releasing your hands is scarey and can encourage him to bolt or even buck. However if your “core” is strong and your center of gravity is in exactly the correct spot, and your legs especially your calfs are steady on his sides, you may release him and at the same time keep him steady. A really good instructor can show you how to do this. It is a little les evident to receive good instruction on a forum, if you know what I mean. Good luck with him :)[/QUOTE]
I was under the impression that attaching the lunge line below the chin is also acceptable for lunging. It also says so in my Klimke Cavelleti book? lol. But in all seriousness I do not use lunging for work normally unless it is with cavelleti and if so I use a lunge whip. There was no one to borrow a whip from because I am at home, and I just moved to this farm as stated previously and had not yet moved my whip over.
You will all be happy to know I brought my lunge whip over and purchased a dressage whip because I don’t even own one, I usually just used my moms
You are dead right about my stiffness and hands…I am working on that on this horse.
@mbm - I agree he is stiff and tense. Perhaps he is lame behind, but I think it stems mostly from his nervousness and sketchy upbringing. To put it into perspective; my mom watched the video and thought he looked very relaxed (for him). I agree with what everyone here says that he is not relaxed enough, and is stiff. For him however, he has made progress.
@ideayoda - I’m going to discuss this with my coach on the weekend. She is full of great ground exercises.
[QUOTE=ideayoda;6275508]
Lungeing is NEVER to get bucks out, that is not its use.[/QUOTE]
Speak for yourself.
I’ve refrained from commenting on the video b/c the OP didn’t take kindly to my original post. OP, I am sorry that I snapped at you back on page 2. I’d been having “one of those days” and let loose on you as a consequence - inexcusable. I apologize.
mbm is right. There is something off in the horse’s hind end and it’s much more evident with a rider up than on the lunge, but it was clearly discernible there as well. My gut says it’s high up (stifle, hip, pelvis) based on his way of going. I promise you it’s there. Has your vet seen him go under saddle? That’s usually a part of a full lameness work up, so perhaps he/she has, but if not, I’d at least share the video you posted here with the vet, if not have him/her out to evaluate the horse on the lunge and under saddle.
[QUOTE=JackieBlue;6275941]
I’ve refrained from commenting on the video b/c the OP didn’t take kindly to my original post. OP, I am sorry that I snapped at you back on page 2. I’d been having “one of those days” and let loose on you as a consequence - inexcusable. I apologize.
mbm is right. There is something off in the horse’s hind end and it’s much more evident with a rider up than on the lunge, but it was clearly discernible there as well. My gut says it’s high up (stifle, hip, pelvis) based on his way of going. I promise you it’s there. Has your vet seen him go under saddle? That’s usually a part of a full lameness work up, so perhaps he/she has, but if not, I’d at least share the video you posted here with the vet, if not have him/her out to evaluate the horse on the lunge and under saddle.[/QUOTE]
No worries…I am well aware I am placing myself in the open for comments when I ask questions and have my videos/blog easily visible. I am not trying to hide anything though, I want to be the best horsewoman I can
He did not see me ride him under saddle, he was on a short holiday from riding after his accident.
I will add it to the list of things to go over when the vet comes out. For what it’s it worth my friend came over and rode with me last night and William was really good. He walked on immediately when I asked him to and did not put a foot wrong. Maybe a combination of him learning and me learning and applying the advice here
While I am not discounting JackieBlues years of experience, I would not be quick to jump on a potential lameness issue in this horse at this time. Tension/stiffness can create that NQR look. Anytime a horses energy is going backwards, they can look like this. I would work him on the longe correctly, using that medium to change his balance, and get on him ONLY to teach him the aids. This could take a month of seemingly boring work but in the end, payoff big. Then you will know if your horse is NQR or not.
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