My horses canter is exhausting.

[Come_Shine]

How is he cantering free? Is he heavy or does he carry himself? If he has a heavy canter on his own, perhaps there will be only so much you can do and you may need to adjust your expectations a bit.

How is he with a different rider? Ditto the suggestions about getting a dressage/other rider to evaluate and help.

Is he fit enough to carry himself at the canter? Does his saddle fit?

Have you tried working him side reins at the canter over caveletti? My coach does that reguarly with her guys and it is a great training tool.

My friend just started using a wonder bit on her luggy youngster and it has done wonders to help lighten him to work to get him stronger to carry himself, (transitions, bending, etc - exercises above).

Good luck! Sitting a beautiful canter is one of the best things in the world.

[fordtraktor]

Also, I don’t want to be the “bit him up” person, but a heavy horse often can really benefit from some time in a gag. With judicious use, it is a very helpful tool. You describe yourself as having soft hands…in that case, I would tend to try it with two reins of course. When he leans on you, you’ll have some ammo. You might be shocked how quickly a gag can turn him around. A lot of hunters school in a gag at home. A light touch with a gag is a lot better option than hanging on his mouth in a French link.

[Belmont]

[QUOTE=Chezzie;7291805]
And the only way for the canter to get better is to do it. The less they canter, the harder it is to do in a balanced, organized way. When it’s hard and they aren’t used to doing it, they resist & lean & moan & groan.

(I say that as the owner of the Worlds Heaviest Canterer - Reformed.)[/QUOTE]

I’m so gulity of this. I get so tired and frustrated that I just don’t do it enough. My BO and I were talking the other day about how she needs to trot more, and I need to canter more.

[QUOTE=Come Shine;7292610]How is he cantering free? Is he heavy or does he carry himself?

He carries himself pretty up. He doesn’t have a comfortable canter to begin with unless you can really lean yourself back and sit like a roper (used to be a rope horse) in a rope saddle. I can sit his canter all day when I am riding western.

How is he with a different rider? Ditto the suggestions about getting a dressage/other rider to evaluate and help.

Honestly, never put anyone else on him since I have owned him, because he had a tendency to buck before I got him. We have a couple people that come out to the barn (Dressage & AQHA) to do lessons with BO, so maybe I will ask one of them. He hasn’t even thought about bucking since I got him (probably cause he got it out on the bucking string!).

Is he fit enough to carry himself at the canter?

He is pretty fit. We have been flatting and round pening in “Expando-Reins” for the past six months. We just started back over fences, because I wanted him more supple on the flat than just jumping. He blasts around the turn out all the time, crow hopping and being silly. I’ve been taking it slow developing his topline and hind end.

Have you tried working him side reins at the canter over caveletti?
We have been doing round pen work in the expando-reins. I have not tried to side reins on him yet.

Good luck! Sitting a beautiful canter is one of the best things in the world.

Thank you! I will be so thrilled the day I get to![/QUOTE]

You guys are all very helpful. I am going to try all of these suggestions. I am bad about going for perfection, and it just winds up wearing us both down. It’s just tiring! And who knows, maybe there is no hope of ever having a beautiful canter, but dang it I am going to try!

[pinkpony321]

[QUOTE=supershorty628;7291711]
What bit is he in?

Have you done a lot of transitions? Try doing a transition every 10 steps. Then shorten it to 5. Make a lot of patterns - every time he gets heavy or stiff, turn (if you can). Hard to bear down on the bit when you don’t know where you’re going or what gait you’ll be in.[/QUOTE]

This is excellent advice.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=melody1;7292493]
You don’t need more leg, you need your horse to respond to less leg. I hate seeing “more leg!” preached again and again. Do we think our horses won’t become dead to our legs with overuse the same way we all know our horses will become dead to the hands with overuse?[/QUOTE]

Horse only become dead to aids if you do not expect them to respond and nag them. If you use more leg appropriately, they will NOT become dead to it.

[PaintedHunter]

[QUOTE=Belmont;7292947]
I’m so gulity of this. I get so tired and frustrated that I just don’t do it enough. My BO and I were talking the other day about how she needs to trot more, and I need to canter more.

You guys are all very helpful. I am going to try all of these suggestions. I am bad about going for perfection, and it just winds up wearing us both down. It’s just tiring! And who knows, maybe there is no hope of ever having a beautiful canter, but dang it I am going to try![/QUOTE]

I honestly never thought Ollie’s canter would be as nice as it’s become in just about five months of dressage lessons. It’s so LOVELY to sit now. Like floating marshmallows. Someone who hadn’t sat on him in more than a year rode him recently and commented on his canter and how nice it’s become. Have hope- you can get there too

[melody1]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7293015]
Horse only become dead to aids if you do not expect them to respond and nag them. If you use more leg appropriately, they will NOT become dead to it.[/QUOTE]

That’s exactly my point - but still, it isn’t really about “more leg”. It’s about “more reaction” to very little leg (yes, used appropriately). I think that some riders have this perception that more hand is bad, more leg is good. They’re both pretty essential (used together) and can both be overdone or done improperly, but the default seems to be to focus on the legwork in discussion like this.

There is some validity in that many riders have a tendency to be more aggressive with their hands than their legs. Could be a lack of training, feel, understanding, or any combination of those. Could be a timid rider who is afraid of a little more power. Whatever it is, the answer is still for the rider to teach the horse to respond more appropriately to (ultimately) less of an aid.

[merrygoround]

Canter transitions, canter transition, canter transitions. On a circle. On a circle with a change of lead onto a new circle. Progress from 20m circle to 15m circle. then to 10m circle. Initially on the 10m you will have to work to keep him going, back off and try again another day. It will come.

Stronger bits will back him off, you need him forward.

For you-no pain, no gain!

[netg]

[QUOTE=melody1;7292493]
You don’t need more leg, you need your horse to respond to less leg. I hate seeing “more leg!” preached again and again. Do we think our horses won’t become dead to our legs with overuse the same way we all know our horses will become dead to the hands with overuse?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=melody1;7293087]That’s exactly my point - but still, it isn’t really about “more leg”. It’s about “more reaction” to very little leg (yes, used appropriately). I think that some riders have this perception that more hand is bad, more leg is good. They’re both pretty essential (used together) and can both be overdone or done improperly, but the default seems to be to focus on the legwork in discussion like this.

There is some validity in that many riders have a tendency to be more aggressive with their hands than their legs. Could be a lack of training, feel, understanding, or any combination of those. Could be a timid rider who is afraid of a little more power. Whatever it is, the answer is still for the rider to teach the horse to respond more appropriately to (ultimately) less of an aid.[/QUOTE]

Agree. This combined with merrygoround - you want forward, in front of the leg, responsive to the leg. If “more leg” actually means “more forward” with an associated assumption that the horse responds appropriately well and forward to the leg, sure, more leg. But most of these horses don’t, and most riders (myself included) don’t even know how many ways they block forward with their seats. Ideally your horse is forward enough and in front of your leg enough that more forward comes from allowing with your seat, rather than more leg.

[dags]

As all have said, transitions transitions transitions. 1001 on a circle. Canter/trot trot/canter are especially helpful, bring him back to the trot BEFORE he begins to fall apart at the canter.

Another couple exercises I have found extremely helpful, especially since you don’t actually have to deal with a faster gait, comes at (I think) the beginning of Steinkraus’ book. One is the downward transition to the halt through a driving leg into a set hand; leg & hand are maintained beyond the stoppage of forward motion and only released when horse gives to the hand (important to note here, the hand never pulls. It sets a spot, pushes the horse up to it with the leg, and then tells the horse not to go past that spot. Horse parks with butt under him and will probably lean on the bit. Keep up with the leg (maybe not a dead squeeze but a tap-tap-tap), do not pull but do not give the hand, and when he finally gives to the bit soften everything. He will probably stay right there, in that sweet spot between leg & hand. Pat and walk on softly, then put the leg on, shorten the rein and when he’s getting it you’ll feel him start to rock back even at this early stage.) It’s also a good exercise for riders learning to use leg going into a downward transition, which can seem backwards to some.

(I’ll note Steinkraus says he does this whenever he gets on a new horse as it immediately reveals how well it respects the aids)

When horse is softening on his own in the downward-to-halt Steinkraus moves on to this leg-by-leg walk exercise that I’m probably going to butcher in trying to explain. But essentially, you produce a walk of such slow tempo that the horse is literally only moving one leg at a time, and practically asking permission to do so. If he’s understanding, from the previous exercise, how to softly stay between the hand & leg, you can pull this entire exercise off with just the slightest squeeze of your fingers and no muscling about for a frame.

When he’s soft & willing in these exercises start adding upward transitions to trot. When he gets stiff in the mouth in the upward remember how you showed him where the spot between hand & leg is at the halt, and continue with that set hand and tap-tap-tap with the leg until he remembers too. If he doesn’t, strengthen your core and return him to the halt until he softens (which again, comes from the leg, not a pulling hand) then move forward again. Resistance in upward transitions is just as bad (if not worse) than resistance in downward transitions. If he starts off bracing and stiff in the first steps of the canter he is quite unlikely to ever find softness. When he’s stepping up into the trot without hitting your hand he’s finally moving into the gait from the hind end and you will feel his back raise in the effort. Good pony.

Get Steinkraus’ book for a far better explanation. Take care of these elementary steps and you’ll find canter/trot trot/canter transitions far less painful.

And, in case it hasn’t been mentioned here, it’s all about your core. Your arms should be doing very little pulling. When you need to balance or slow it should come from a squeeze of the fingers, a tightening of the core, and a strengthening of the entire upper body, not the arms.

[IPEsq]

I like doing 4 poles on a circle at the canter–something like ~4 strides between each, set at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o’clock. Have a strong core, deep dressage type seat and posture and try to resist holding him up by his face. The circle and poles should help him pay attention, provide some assistance with collection, and with enough leg will start to lighten him. I also like this exercise because in order to stay on the circle evenly, it requires you to really put the horse on the outside rein.

I also agree with the suggestion to try a gag temporarily. You might need more lift help from the bit to get a response that you want, but of course, once you get it, you can give in, and then the horse will start making the action-reward association that you may not really be getting to with the current bit at the canter.

[Chezzie]

[QUOTE=melody1;7292493]
You don’t need more leg, you need your horse to respond to less leg. I hate seeing “more leg!” preached again and again. Do we think our horses won’t become dead to our legs with overuse the same way we all know our horses will become dead to the hands with overuse?[/QUOTE]

I’m certainly not preaching…just relating what worked for me. I have a horse who really likes to be heavy and on his forehand. He is also very forward, and has a profoundly uncomfortable canter. All of which contributed to me being in a position very similar to the OP. I could trot all day long, but cantering twice around the ring was my idea of torture (on this particular horse, not in general).

I had to learn ride him with a lot of leg, to keep his hind end engaged, his back up, and keep him pushing from behind, rather than dragging himself along with his front end. When his hind end is working, his front end is lighter, and the canter is easier to handle. When the canter is easier to handle, I do it more, and it continues to improve.

[melody1]

[QUOTE=Chezzie;7293526]
I’m certainly not preaching…just relating what worked for me. I have a horse who really likes to be heavy and on his forehand. He is also very forward, and has a profoundly uncomfortable canter. All of which contributed to me being in a position very similar to the OP. I could trot all day long, but cantering twice around the ring was my idea of torture (on this particular horse, not in general).

I had to learn ride him with a lot of leg, to keep his hind end engaged, his back up, and keep him pushing from behind, rather than dragging himself along with his front end. When his hind end is working, his front end is lighter, and the canter is easier to handle. When the canter is easier to handle, I do it more, and it continues to improve.[/QUOTE]

Keeping his hind end working should not have a direct correlation with how “much” leg you’re using, unless you were truly using none at all. Keeping my horse’s hind end working requires a little leg with a big response and a confident half halt. As numerous trainers have beaten into my little brain, less is more. Use as little as possible but as much as necessary.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=melody1;7294583]
Keeping his hind end working should not have a direct correlation with how “much” leg you’re using, unless you were truly using none at all. Keeping my horse’s hind end working requires a little leg with a big response and a confident half halt. As numerous trainers have beaten into my little brain, less is more. Use as little as possible but as much as necessary.[/QUOTE]

We get it. Your horses are perfectly trained to the leg and you only have to think of using your leg and they respond. Good for you. Will you be teaching clinics soon? We all apparently have a lot we could learn from you. :rolleyes:

[melody1]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7294656]
We get it. Your horses are perfectly trained to the leg and you only have to think of using your leg and they respond. Good for you. Will you be teaching clinics soon? We all apparently have a lot we could learn from you. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Come on, is your attitude really necessary to make a point?

I just don’t see how it’s going to do the rider any good to keep telling her to “squeeze harder!” on what sounds like an already heavy horse. Wake the horse up. I’m not going to tell her to simply “pull harder” to stop, either, because that’s not sound advice

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=melody1;7294664]
Come on, is your attitude really necessary to make a point? [/QUOTE]

Probably not, but your posts have annoyed me from the first with their superior tone and I’m feeling feisty tonight, so…

I just don’t see how it’s going to do the rider any good to keep telling her to “squeeze harder!” on what sounds like an already heavy horse. Wake the horse up. I’m not going to tell her to simply “pull harder” to stop, either, because that’s not sound advice

Please show me where anyone said “squeeze harder.” Just because YOU determine “more leg” to mean squeeze harder doesn’t mean the rest of the COTH does.

[melody1]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7294668]
Please show me where anyone said “squeeze harder.” Just because YOU determine “more leg” to mean squeeze harder doesn’t mean the rest of the COTH does.[/QUOTE]

If we all agree on that, I don’t have anything further to discuss.

More often than not, I do see and read the results of using a strong but ineffective aid and wondering why it doesn’t work, or why eventually you have to use an even stronger one. I’ve been guilty of it myself. My goal is to help the OP enjoy her horse by sending her in the right direction with her training, not by her further deadening her horse to her aids. If you view that as me having a superior attitude and are annoyed, that’s too bad, but I’m certainly not going to lose any sleep over it.

[beowulf]

Echoing the transitions! It’s hard to be heavy if you’re anticipating what to do next.

I had a reformed “heavy” canterer too – what really helped him was doing leg yields to and from the wall, shoulder in, and lots of canter poles. The canter poles really, REALLY encouraged him to use himself and after a couple exercises I could feel a literal 15 pound difference in the reins.

I admittedly did not always work on cantering him in flat sessions - he tended to scoot into an ugly transition and stay there. But staying determined and ACTUALLY cantering really helped. I used to get so focused on his trot work and trot-set fitness that I really missed a crucial gap in his education that showed. I spent a lot of time cantering him out on the trails and doing canter sets but it did VERY little to get him light to the rein… If anything, I think it accentuated his heaviness.

I also REALLY loved doing figure eights at the canter, with simple changes. He was schooled enough that he could have done figure eights with lead changes himself, but I thought the simple changes really helped rebalance him and “back” him off the bit.

[loshad]

When every trainer I’ve ever had wanted me to add more leg, responsiveness was assumed. “More leg” is far from an invitation to nag – it’s added, the horse moves up, he’s more under himself, and hopefully he begins carrying himself better. I prefer transitions, but more leg (and hopefully more impulsion) can be a good way of getting what you need too, especially in cases where you can’t take the time to do a bunch of transitions. YMMV.

[netg]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7294656]
We get it. Your horses are perfectly trained to the leg and you only have to think of using your leg and they respond. Good for you. Will you be teaching clinics soon? We all apparently have a lot we could learn from you. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

You may or may not - it’s not something which shows from your posts, honestly. But in real life, particularly with a horse who gets heavy, the understanding that it means a correct response is usually missing. It may or may not be for the many people we have never seen ride here, but assuming they know what it should mean when the words themselves are pretty simple for the concept is not necessarily helpful.

@loshad;7294713

When every trainer I’ve ever had wanted me to add more leg, responsiveness was assumed. “More leg” is far from an invitation to nag – it’s added, the horse moves up, he’s more under himself, and hopefully he begins carrying himself better. I prefer transitions, but more leg (and hopefully more impulsion) can be a good way of getting what you need too, especially in cases where you can’t take the time to do a bunch of transitions. YMMV.

I attempted to say this, but loshad is very clear. For everyone with the above assumptions when saying “more leg” I agree… but without seeing anyone ride, it’s hard to know that’s what everyone means.