My mare kicks at other horses and I'm fed up with it!

[Islandponies]

I have an 11 year old appy/TB mare that I bred myself.

She would be an excellent trail horse-she is forward, non-spooky, etc, but she is extremely dominant and will switch her tail, back toward and then kick at any other horse that gets near her on the trail. I usually ride with friends and end up going last so I won’t have to worry about someone getting too close behind her and setting her off. When she acts like she’s going to kick, I whack her behind the saddle and yell at her, which might stop her in the moment but doesn’t prevent her from doing it again next time. We ride on narrow trails through the woods a lot, and when other riders want to pass us, I back my mare into the woods to avoid anyone getting hurt. It’s nerve wracking. My trainer says you really can’t change the behavior. She suggested trying regumate to see if it would make any difference but I can’t keep her on it all the time. If it weren’t such a scary world for horses right now I might sell my mare and get a gelding, but I am not going to do that because so many good horses are coming to bad ends these days. Is it possible to train a mare like this out of acting this way?

[cloudy18]

I’m reading “There Are No Problem Horses, Only Problem Riders” by Mary Twelveponies. She has a short piece on kickers. Basically, she tells the clues horses give before they kick, which you are likely aware of. She suggests keeping the horse going forward with energy, bc they cannot kick if they are doing this supposedly. When they do these things that lead up to kicking she suggests a solid smack with a crop. She goes into more detail in the book, but there isn’t much to it. Eventually a squeeze of the legs should do it. She says to train first with one other rider so there are less distractions.

My mare will kick at dogs, so I have to be on my toes when anyone brings a dog. I can tell when she is noticing them so I have to be one her, whether I distract her with trotting or something, or verbally reprimand her. Your mare is very pretty, it would be a shame to get rid of an otherwise perfect trail horse. I’d put the red ribbon in her tail on rides to forewarn strangers.

[Jaegermonster]

Definitely do the red ribbon. Although it does not absolve you of responsibilty for your horse’s behavior, others appreciate the warning.
I foxhunt, and kicking in the hunt field is an absolute no no. Like an international incident no no.
What I have done when I get one that wants to be crappy like that for no good reason is I get with a friend of mine who is a very good and secure rider on a dependable horse. Then we set the horse up and put him in a situation where he will most likely offer to kick.
When he does you make him think that Pandora’s box just fell on his head, he is about to die and all the demons of hell are on his back. Take your crop and beat her for about 3 seconds, hard and fast. Then stop and go on as though nothing has happened. Until she does it again and you give her the same response. it may take a few times and maybe one or two rides, but I guarantee you will stop the kicking.
Not only is kicking very dangerous ( I have seen people’s legs broken from others horses kicking, not to mention my own injury which was caused by someone else’s horse kicking out) it is disrespectful to the rider. She is not respecting your authority while being ridden.

Anyway, this is how I handle a kicker. Obviously a green horse or baby would be handled differently at first but we aren’t talking about a baby here.

[saddleup]

Not the same thing exactly, but I rode with a parade and drill team, and the riders rode in formation, knee to knee. Kicking was not an option. The technique Jaegermonster explained is what worked for me when my gelding tried to object to horses being too close. I warned everyone around me that I was going to make a huge fuss for 3 seconds, so they’d be prepared for it, and after literally three times he never did it again. I had to growl at him a couple of times at first to remind him, but then he let it go.

It’s that or maybe be resigned to riding at the end of the line forever. It’s worth a try to break her of the behavior.

She is a beautiful horse, though. Good luck.

[chicamuxen1]

Your problem is well established at this point and may be the fault of your not being an assertive confident rider. I don’t know you, so I know I could be wrong about that. This will take real confrontations with your horse, use of a good long dressage whip and some real fanny warming and horse leaping around sort of stuff. I suggest a dressage whip so you can hold on to BOTH reins while doling out fast, short and STERN punishment while still steering and staying on top.

A lot of people never confront their horses, they have an avoidance style of riding. Never correct the horse, horse may jump around and rider is afraid of falling or loosing control. It’s not easy to push your comfort zone and take a “risk”. I suggest using the whip on one side and giving some good hard smack on the hindquarter, kick sharply well back with your heel on the same side and pul the horses head around to that side, all at the same time. Scream in anger TOO!!! The pull around to the side will prevent your horse from leaping forward and the whip and heel will move or displace the horse hindquarters and they can’t kick when their feet are crossing sideways, as someone else said.

Personally, I don’t allow a horse to pin ears are make ugly faces,at all. This is the first stage of ugly behavior and I feel you should stop it cold. Waaaayy too many people just ignore the ugly looks and warn other riders to stay away instead of correcting their own horse at this early point in bad behavior.

Bonnie S.

[Kyzteke]

I’ve never seen a horse kick yet where it didn’t start with pinned ears and a nasty look. Also they will subtly move their hind end towards their “target.”

As a rider you should be easily able to see all of this. The advice you’ve gotten is excellent, but you have to #1 Be Aware…always be monitoring you mare’s front end, 'cause that’s where the kick will start, #2 Be The Boss.

When you are in the saddle or on the end of the lead shank, YOU are the alpha mare, not her. Period. This is not open to discussion and she needs to know that.

And another vote for the red ribbon, even if you think you’ve gotten this habit under control. At least others will try their best to avoid her or give you warning.

Also – one last note. When you open that can of whup ass on her with the crop, be aware that hitting a horse on the rump often CAUSES a buck/kick. You can just as easily smack her on the shoulder or ribs (directly behind your leg). Basically you just want to scare the living crap out of her. It REALLY needs to be a come to Jesus moment and if you aren’t a dominate type, you will have your work cut out for you.

Horses are masters of this game, and she will see right through you.

Also, OT, but where are all these “trainers” coming from? One gets a horse to bucking after slapping a training fork on them and cranking the head down, and this one shrugs their shoulders and suggests drugs because a horse kicks? To think these people are shaping tomorrow’s horse people is scary at best…

[Icecapade]

[QUOTE=chicamuxen1;4018860]

Personally, I don’t allow a horse to pin ears are make ugly faces,at all. This is the first stage of ugly behavior and I feel you should stop it cold. Waaaayy too many people just ignore the ugly looks and warn other riders to stay away instead of correcting their own horse at this early point in bad behavior.

Bonnie S.[/QUOTE]

BINGO
People are always wondering why I make such a fuss over my stallion when he bats a stallion ear or eye… and there is a difference… but its cutting something BIG off before it ever gets off the ground. Its being proactive not reactive.

I always say- it starts right here, with that look. Establish that THAT behavior is 110% NOT acceptable and you will go a long way to developing a safe reliable horse. She has gotten away with it for a long time… will take a little bit to undo but its possible quick direct active punishment/praise.

Good luck!

[katarine]

You must ride with a red ribbon so others have some warning.

You should try to enlist a solid friend on a solid trail horse to help set your mare up for such behaviors. And going forward enlist these guys/gals to help you on future rides…help you watch for the hairy eyeball, the grumpy face, the ears…working together you’ll get sharp as a tack at anticipating, and heading off, this behavior.

I’d be riding her with 8’ long, heavy leather split reins. If she kicks out with a LH or a RH, either one, or double barrelling, or just ignores my leg and seat and is slowing to kick, backing to kick- any of it- well, that’s disrespect and disobedience and I don’t play that game for a second- she’s gonna get her clock cleaned with one of those rein ends, over and under to drive her FORWARD then WHOA and KNOCK IT OFF. Once she’s knocked back into first gear we go right back to work. IF I have the space for it…I’d follow it up with a hard trot up some hills or at least some hard trotting circles- take the air and piss and vinegar out of her. Back to work like nothing happened, then set her up again and again. If I can’t spin her around or whatever I’m for darn sure going to get a good hold and flail on her shoulders and base of her neck. Kicking is a deadly sin in my book

If this and the other posts saying the same thing seem to be too :eek: then no, you won’t train it out of her b/c you’re worried you’ll get hurt. Maybe that’s why the trainer suggested regumate, b/c they know you’re a softy or too green to try this. It’s a rough and tumble fix but it’s a vice that can take out another horse, a rider’s ankle or kneecap, etc. Bad bad vice.

[jazzrider]

My gelding Luke used to do the same thing, for opposite reasons. He’s at the bottom of the herd and was extremely defensive – doing the ugly eye and spin and kick to protect himself from everyone.

I can’t hold a crop on trail (messed up hands, can’t handle it for more than 45 minutes or so) and hate screaming at a horse in a group trail ride (ugh, nothing is worse that a long trail ride with someone who can’t control their horse and is letting everyone know it), so we went with the sharp, hard kick behind the girth and a yank to left or right, combined with a growl (of sorts). A month or two of doing that every time he thought about it, and we got it pretty much under control. I’ll still have him wear a red ribbon in big group rides, just to be safe, but he’s so much better now.

Whatever you choose to do, be consistant!

[twofatponies]

[QUOTE=jazzrider;4020082]
My gelding Luke used to do the same thing, for opposite reasons. He’s at the bottom of the herd and was extremely defensive – doing the ugly eye and spin and kick to protect himself from everyone.

I can’t hold a crop on trail (messed up hands, can’t handle it for more than 45 minutes or so) and hate screaming at a horse in a group trail ride (ugh, nothing is worse that a long trail ride with someone who can’t control their horse and is letting everyone know it), so we went with the sharp, hard kick behind the girth and a yank to left or right, combined with a growl (of sorts). A month or two of doing that every time he thought about it, and we got it pretty much under control. I’ll still have him wear a red ribbon in big group rides, just to be safe, but he’s so much better now.

Whatever you choose to do, be consistant![/QUOTE]

I will have to work on this with my mare. Funny, because I’ve taken her hunting and in a mob of strange horses she looks straight ahead and does her job. It’s only with her pasture-mates (she’s alpha) that she gets all ear-pinny when they are near her on the trail. She’s never, ever tried to kick, even when we’ve been in a collision or cramped together in a narrow spot, but she did bite my other mare once, right in the face, when we were riding side by side. I’ll try intervening when the ears pin.

[DebbieB]

The OP needs to practice an emergency stop/one rein stop. I have been using it for years with fractious (read: bucking) horses. I have never fallen off while doing it. The horse cannot buck but they can spin very fast. I make sure to put my feet slightly forward, braced against the stirrups, lean back a bit and pull one rein very short. This is the opposite of the semi fetal position that used to result in me on the ground.

Initially I practiced the one rein stop in my head day and night. As a result it happened automatically when I needed it.

If there isn’t room to do spinney stuff then give the horse something else to do: step left, step right, step up, step left, step right, etc, etc, etc.

I agree with the other posters who said that this needs to be stopped at the nasty face or pinned ears stage, long before the actual kick.

A horse knows that they cannot use their feet to buck, run, or kick during a one rein stop and as a result it is a very effective correction.

Just whipping a horse may cause bucking or lunging and many riders will not be brave enough to risk it.

[katarine]

[QUOTE=jazzrider;4020082]
… hate screaming at a horse in a group trail ride (ugh, nothing is worse that a long trail ride with someone who can’t control their horse and is letting everyone know it)…
QUOTE]

hence the suggestion to invest some time with others who know it’s a training ride or training rides…and get after her- don’t make it public, deal with it privately but with help so you can get down to just a growled ‘NO MA’AM’

[2enduraceriders]

<<My trainer says you really can’t change the behavior>>

You need a different trainer…

On my horses the first time they kick or threaten to kick is the last! It is the worse mistake of their lives an they know it. When riding I am the boss they are not.
Like other’s have said this is rider error. My guess is that there are other riding and handling issues going on too. A better trainer will help you to learn to ride rather then to be a passenger.

[jazzrider]

[QUOTE=katarine;4020130]

[QUOTE=jazzrider;4020082]… hate screaming at a horse in a group trail ride (ugh, nothing is worse that a long trail ride with someone who can’t control their horse and is letting everyone know it)…
QUOTE]

hence the suggestion to invest some time with others who know it’s a training ride or training rides…and get after her- don’t make it public, deal with it privately but with help so you can get down to just a growled ‘NO MA’AM’[/QUOTE]

Yup, understood. I was talking about me – since we usually either ride alone (just hubby and I) or with a big group. But yes – if you can find some training pals, it’s the best way to go.

Twofatponies – We have the same problem! My boy is good now in groups, but still gives the evil eye and tail swish to his pasture mates. It’s a bigger challenge, because you can’t stop it out in the field, and you’re work while riding is only part of it…

[katarine]

Jazz, my Jake is a low-dominance type worrier, too- he doesn’t like being crowded not out of dominance, but out of fear that he’s going to be hurt- he’s never kicked out and I’m sure that he won’t- but he’ll warn other horses to back off- now b/c I know him, I allow that w/in reason- in a parade last month two girls shoved their horses into his tail- no call for that, just basic ignorance about riding w/ strange horses. He gave them stink eyes over his shoulder, slowed his pace, swished his tail…and finally I heard one say uh we need to back off he’s going to kick. Good girl. Now all that happened in 3-4 strides so it was quick…If she’ll start thinking like that and maybe she won’t get kicked later by a horse with a much lower tolerance.

I was hoping for the OP she can stage some set ups and get to start dealing with it in good company w/ supportive people. She might be intimidated by tackling it all, in a bigger group of strangers.

[jazzrider]

Yeah, that’s Luke. He’s so paranoid, and every once in a while a horse confirms his fears (we were on a group ride where a green 4 year old decided Luke needed to die :eek:). It’s tough being on the bottom – particularly when we both like to lead! Problem for me is I’m not sure he won’t kick, so I need to be careful.

I will say that when someone crowds us and really isn’t respecting our space or my warning that he can be defensive, I’ll spin him around once or twice to make him look hot and difficult (even though it’s me doing the spinning :D) and that usually works. It saves my voice and Luke’s nerves!