My young horse doesn't like my posting? UPDATE post 74 - pelvis imbalance

[RedHorses]

@BayBondGirl

This is the saddle that was checked 3x in the summer by a different independent fitter, who told me it fit almost perfectly. I just… don’t have words at the moment.

Before you crucify the other saddle fitters, remember that you did say she had lost a lot of condition during the winter time off (something that may also have made the asymmetry in her hind end muscling more apparent) which can have a huge affect on saddle fit. As can growth/maturity development up to age 7-8. The saddle may have fit last summer.

My WB fit my older horse’s saddle until he’d gotten some muscle development after about two months work. Things would fall apart, he’d lose muscling, and the saddle fit again. The saddle I ended up buying for him doesn’t come close to fitting my senior. Yes, my senior’s saddle did fit well in the reduced muscle phases - he was both extremely sensitive to saddle fit and very expressive when it didn’t fit.

Mine was 1/4 Arab. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a draft cross have big changes in back shape between 4-8.

[BayBondGirl]

Just a recap of the thread and some notes before you watch the video:

• this saddle is temporary, borrowed from a very qualified fitter; I don’t plan to purchase it
• she is working in a bitless bridle and a bit here, but she does this whether she has a bit or not, whether she’s on a completely loose rein or not
• teeth have been checked multiple times
• she does this with every saddle I have tried, including western ones and (cushy) bareback pads
• she does this only with a rider - see video in my recent post of how she moves tacked but unridden
• this behaviour started out of the blue after a summer of riding without it
• she is very green, turning 5 this May
• she only does this at trot, not walk
• she is the only horse I’ve ridden in 2+ years so I am not at peak “riding” shape

https://youtu.be/-9OENDkksXs?si=iI0Nian2nj_s5IYZ

[BayBondGirl]

I’m certainly not crucifying anyone! The fitter is a kind and honest person, and I believe she did the best she could with her knowledge. I still spent a lot of money via her recommendation, so I feel disappointed and frustrated.

Unfortunately this was not a changing shape issue - the rails of the saddle tree were always too narrow for her! It was also always far too wide at the front. I’m surprised she put up with it for as long as she did. The saddle was approved in May 2024, and this behaviour began happening in late August 2024. It was checked again in Sept 2024 and approved at that time; the behavior was the worst it’s ever been during that fitting appointment.

[beowulf]

I watched the video. She was sounder than I expected for everything you shared about her. And I love her name.

I don’t see DSLD/ESPA, c-spine, or anything that bad just yet. I see a young, unbalanced, somewhat anxious but also somewhat lazy horse that doesn’t trust contact or pressure, and isn’t confident pushing from behind. I see a somewhat shorter RH stride with her wanting to bring that RH more past the midline than with the LH. You can see when she picks up her head over the pole, it’s when she has to push that RH off. Does it hurt? Or is it pain memory? Only you know her well enough to know.

I would not fuss about finding a saddle right now. She is 5. I can’t tell you how much my WB changed in size between her 5 y/o year and now. I put off buying a saddle for her until I knew she was done growing - so, last spring. I hear you on being frustrated that the saddle you had checked over 3x is now being told not a remotely good fit. BTDT. Take your current fitter’s words with a grain of salt - they are so quick to put down a past saddle fitter’s work. The only person whose opinion truly matters about the fit is Forza. And keep in mind six months ago, her atrophy was much worse wasn’t it?

I know you want to ride her, but watching the video and all you shared, I think this horse would really benefit from a few months of long-lining, trotting and cantering over raised poles - mixed in with lots of hacks (bareback, if you have to!). You’ve done a great job addressing the pelvic asymmetry. (Side note: I have a horse that broke his pelvis in three places, I know the journey. It’s hard. Happy to share what’s worked and what hasn’t.)

I’d be putting a bellboot on that RH each time you work her. I did this with my pelvic-break horse and it helped him remember to use that hind.

Given you know she had some sort of catastrophic thing happen to her hind end, I’d be working more on things that build hind end strength. Raised cavaletti are great for this. And, assuming it was some kind of break (to have caused that degree of atrophy), expect this is a multi-year project. Don’t get discouraged that it doesn’t all improve right away.

Your situation is exactly why I take pictures of my horses front, side, and from back - at least twice a year. It takes some time to set up right for the photos, but you would be surprised how easy it can be to miss something that seems glaringly obvious, because you are used to the horse. Start taking photos if you aren’t already. Include photos that show the feet so you have an objective “goal post” each year to refer to.

Your riding is great. You are very accommodating with her. But don’t let her train you to ask for less.

[BayBondGirl]

@beowulf, THANK YOU! What an encouraging , helpful message. That gives me such a sigh of relief to read your words.

Re: her pelvis asymmetry, a break was never suspected, just a misalignment. It was an easy adjustment for the CS therapist, and the adjustment has held so we are working on strengthening exercises whenever I’m at the barn (3-4x a week). Our new barn has poles galore, so we have been doing in-hand work almost exclusively since moving here - but I will start to increase the variety of things such as canter, raised poles, etc; I have been so worried that she’s lame that I have been ultra cautious in my approach.

The bellboot on the RH is a great idea, I will do that!

I don’t NEED to ride right now; she’s been brought along so slowly because her longevity is important to me. I have someone to go for trail walks with who also has a horse she needs to slowly bring into work.

I do have intentions to get a pro involved both for rides and my own lessons once she is ready for that, to help establish some healthy foundations like safe contact, etc.

Thank you again. This feedback was so helpful.

[blue_heron]

Nothing in this video stresses me out in terms of the horse. She looks young and not super motivated. The head tossing and speeding up/slowing down is just a thing they do and it will go away with time. I would not be bringing her trot to halt or doing very small circles until she is more forward and the balance is much better back to front.

What does bother me a little is the saddle fit for you. You are sitting in the back seat and landed on the cantle more than a few times in the video. This could definitely lead to a young horse not liking the posting. You either need to get over your leg by getting out of the saddle or you need a saddle with a different balance because this one is not doing you any favors. I hope this is helpful and doesn’t come across as rude.

[BayBondGirl]

@blue_heron Not rude, thank you! This saddle is not one I am interested in purchasing, for the reasons that you mentioned. I only borrowed it for a week to see if the tree shape would reduce the behaviors; the fitter is returning tomorrow with more options for me. I will be getting a dressage saddle for our next one, since jumping is eons away into our future

[millerra]

agree w/ both BW and BH.

I like her; I think she needs more strength and time. I wouldn’t stop her when she tosses her head. As my coach says, forward and straight is always the correct answer.

So, to be honest, I am learning how to ride better my 7 yr old TB who came from some bad after track training. He does a similar thing because he is extremely claustrophobic about the bit. What your horse does at the trot he did at every gait continuously.

What would I say helped w/ him:

The bit is extremely important to him. He likes the happy mouth (bumpy) mullen mouth. He is ok w/ wrapped bits. Other bits, no thanks.

Getting him on my side first had to happen, which took (cough) 2 years of riding patiently while he finally decided I was trustworthy enough to work with. I don’t think your mare has that issue.

Then, forward and straight is always correct. A very stable but soft/following outside rein - and only the outside rein is extremely important to him. I stay patient until he remembers the right answer.

I have had a lot of guilt about why it is taking us so long - (i.e bad rider) - then my coach worked w/ long lining him. Same exact issue w/ claustrophobia about the bit even though nothing was locked in place and weight of rein only. So we continue on. We are making progress; he has asymmetric strength/weakness for years of bracing in his poll and tipping over his right shoulder off his left hind. He is not asymmetrically built. we are just slowly addressing the asymmetry. This couldn’t be addressed really, until he decided to work with me instead of against. He is actually a good guy w/ a great character. I just keep moving forward w/ him in the hopes that we get somewhere.

Again, I like your horse (and you are too hard on yourself) - I would say “steady as she goes, and have very clear ground rules w/ a very clear correct answer” and be patient.

[Lunabear1988]

I’ll echo what pretty much everyone else said, your riding looks fine to me and she looks fairly sound over all. I’m a firm believer in movement can often be medicine. I think work can be physical therapy like if we approach it correctly.

She looks like a big horse that needs time to mature into her body. What a cutie!

[GraceLikeRain]

Can you take lunge line lessons on another horse with no reins a few times? You are far from a bad rider and I think you’ve got a fairly sensitive big girl. A lot of the head tossing pretty directly corresponds to an upward transition where your hand is fixed or when you get behind the motion, she inverts, and your hand catches her and then she slings it in response. We all know the idea that if your horse disappeared you’d land on your feet but I think the challenge is a little deeper than just saddle fit for the rider. I’d really focus on your core and stabilizing muscles. She should and needs to be able to lurch forward without you getting pitched back, hop into a transition without any change in the contact, or lose balance without the rider getting pulled into the imbalance. That’s what all green horses need and she’s big enough she’s not going to be a catty self adjuster the way a TB her age may be able to compensate.
Green horses find our own holes and magnify them. I think a month of ground strength for her and you would yield some pretty awesome results. Again, you’re a nice rider and this is egregious by any stretch but I do think there are growth opportunities with your stability and increasing the elasticity of your elbows that would yield really rewarding results in short order.

[BayBondGirl]

Wow, you guys are so encouraging and kind with your responses, thank you! I got a bit choked up reading your supportive messages. Also because the relief of hearing so many opinions that she appears sound is immense.

This is my first time with a young horse, and I’m doing it almost exclusively solo (due to financial limitations), so I have no baseline to determine what is “baby” behavior vs pain behavior. I’ve erred on the side of extremely cautious for fear of “ruining” her before we’ve even begun!

@GraceLikeRain re: lessons, I will be able to look at that in the future, but I’ve had some significant vet workups on the horse over the last few months so my equestrian budget is majorly depleted right now.

I could really use some lessons on a school master since having kids! Even doing barre workouts and weight training again, my core never feels like it’s anywhere near where it used to be pre-children There is a new local lady who teaches classical dressage (the really lovely, soft and connected kind) as well as straightness training, so I’m going to reach out to her once I have some more money built up!

Well thank you all again so much. Hopefully my next posts will be in one of the dressage or eventing forums!

[anonevent]

Have you ever tried a Racewood simulator? If there’s one near you, you might find it helpful. Your body has probably been compensating for your horse’s asymmetry and it can be helpful to sit on a “horse” with no asymmetry and get immediate feedback from the computer about what is happening with your body.

[BayBondGirl]

I don’t believe we have one locally, but I can ask around on the local FB groups.

[anonevent]

I don’t know how up to date this list is: https://www.racewood.com/our-customers.html

[IPEsq]

I’m going to be a little bit of a Debbie downer, but I don’t think she’s sound behind. But the behavior indicates more axial skeletal pain as the source. Something up high affecting the right hind the most. Sorry, I forget the history…have you done any imaging of the back and pelvis?

[IPEsq]

Also in the lunge video she’s got no impulsion. When you send her more forward in the riding, she objects with all of the evasions. If you sent her more forward without a rider, is she willing and relaxed or do things change?

[BayBondGirl]

@IPEsq

Sorry, I forget the history…have you done any imaging of the back and pelvis

We did x-rays of her back about 11 months ago, but none of the pelvis (no reason to at the time). The x-rays were just for info, not because of any concerns at the time.

@IPEsq

Also in the lunge video she’s got no impulsion. When you send her more forward in the riding, she objects with all of the evasions. If you sent her more forward without a rider, is she willing and relaxed or do things change?

She can move forward nicely on the line without a rider! But as someone commented above, she’s not the most “motivated” of horses in general She and her siblings are bred to be pretty quiet, safe amateur horses. Her dream job would be to curl up in your lap and be stroked all day every day, so she’s not a super forward-thinker at this time

[IPEsq]

Yeah that is apparent ;). Just wondering if you asked her to move out without a rider if she’d complain or look for evasions there as well. If not then it still points more to axial skeleton. Did you do neck rads or just back? It looks to be more in the pelvis but neck stuff can present in all kinds of ways, and as you’ve said she acts weird about contact.

[BayBondGirl]

I just did her back at the time, because we didn’t have any issues and it was to make sure there was no KS before starting her under more regular saddle work. But after the months of issues we’ve faced, I have been researching neck issues and have been considering getting neck rads taken at our next scheduled appointment. The CS therapist did find some stiffness in her neck assessment.