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Mystery lameness nqr

Horse Care
#1

My horse has been showing increasingly problematic behavior over the last few months. Starting in December. From the time he came back from the trainers to be broke he has had issues at the canter. We chalked it up to it being a strength issue. He would pig root or kick out his hind legs to swap leads going to the left. He can hold a canter just fine on the right. But most recently every once in a while he would strike off into a cross canter immediately on the right lead. I’d fix it an he wouldn’t do it again. With consistent work he is better about not pig rooting with the left lead and can hold it. More recently I can feel when he’s about to do it before he swishes his tail and if I tuck my pelvis and add leg then I can prevent it from happening all together.
It started at a schooling show in December. He put in a really nice and relaxed dressage test and got a 30. When we got to XC he completely froze when it was time to go into the woods and away from the other horses. I worked him through it and we finished in just under 8 minutes. I’ll tell you right now I have no idea how I got him through it after what happened this weekend.
We went back to the same show same division same course in January. Now he’s rearing in the dressage which was in the same arena. Tripping over himself. Doing really bad pig rooting and bucking during the show jump. He kicked out hard and high at least 6 times so I scratched from XC and called it a day. We had an outing yesterday with the intent to school at this place to give him some confidence. We walked around, we warmed up, everything was fine until we went to jump a tiny log. Tried to jump it 3 times and each time he’s bucking on the backside. Can’t even travel in a straight line. It was a mess. So I just stopped him and removed him from that situation. I wanted it to be a relaxing experience and if that meant no jumping I was fine with that. So we keep on exploring and I let him stop and look to his hearts content because now is the time to do it. Then he rears out of nowhere when I wasn’t even putting pressure on him. We were just standing there. I try to see if maybe trotting around would help and it didn’t. Tried to walk some more and he absolutely would not go down these trails so I just got off and led him the rest of the way and walked back to the trailer because he was mentally fried and it literally took nothing for him to get that way. He continues rearing and bucking at the trailer. He’s not buddy sour. He wasn’t wearing his tack at this point. His tack fits well. He loves his bit. He goes just great at home and at the instructors barn. We do really well XC at other venues. But he was down right neurotic this weekend. Out of precaution we treated him for epm and that did nothing. He’s being prophylactically treated for ulcers just in case that was it. He’s on a magnesium supplement. The only remarkable thing on his PPE was a spur in his right hock that the vet said was unlikely to bother him. But I’m wondering if he has kissing spine. He’s 75% thoroughbred and 25% Irish draught. I called Texas A&M to get an estimate for a lameness exam and they said it would be $1,000 and that included x rays and blocking. I said blocking? I don’t think it’s a lower extremity it seems like it’s higher up. He doesn’t feel off or lame. They said if they couldn’t block him they would need to do a $3,000 bone scan. I’m just wanting X-rays I didn’t know it would be such a hassle and require all this extra expensive stuff. So I’m still shopping around for where to go to get him assessed for kissing spine. And to at least have that hock looked at again. If he’s medically cleared then I think maybe he just needs another low pressure year to mature some more. This behavior is 100% out of character for him. He is well traveled, experienced, his foundation in his training is really well done. I don’t understand this neurotic fractious behavior if it’s not related to pain. I’ve done my best to never over face him intentionally. I think my biggest mistake was not schooling at this venue before I took him to the horse trial and really pushing him through that course to finish when he was telling me no may have traumatized him unintentionally.
Does this sound like it could be kissing spine? Or the hock? Or is this all just mental and he needs another year to mature?

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This was his back last summer I was concerned because he has some prominent bumps along his spine. He has since developed a better topline.

#2

Do you have a farm vet that has a portable X-ray machine? Some areas may not be the easiest to see if he’s built substantial topline, but you can get a good idea of what’s going on in the neck and back with field X-rays.

He jumps fine elsewhere? Anything unique about this footing? Sometimes, bucking on the back side of jumps can be feet pain or joints, but I wouldn’t expect him to be perfect in other situations.

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#3

We’re going to contact a local vet to see about some simple X-rays. He jumps fine everywhere else. The footing was fine at this place. It seemed more like the environment is what bothered him. But his physical reaction to it was just over the top.

#4

But it sounds like he has other issues as well? At the canter and keeping the proper lead? Does that happen everywhere you’ve ridden him or only when you were at this particular venue?

#5

When he’s in consistent work at home the problem with the canter is virtually non existent. All these behavioral problems come about when he’s put under pressure or has the opportunity to become tense in his body. He will do it more at my instructors barn but it’s manageable. He did it with every upward transition during our last schooling show on 1/28 in the dressage. But he didn’t do it that day during the jumping phases. I hope that makes sense.

#6

How old is this horse? It does present as back or SI pain. Unless horse is not stoic at all, I don’t see hock issues present like this, but more of a lack of performance issue.

He does look like he could use some.top line support though :confused:

#7

He’s turning 5 in April. This is him most recently.

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#8

How long has he been under saddle for? You said he came back from the trainer from being broke in December, to me that means he was away for 60-90 days. And already going to multiple shows? He might just be over faced/ stressed.

Or I might be totally wrong on your timeline.

P.

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#9

He went in December and came back the first of March. He went to Florida and got to experience a lot and handled everything really well. I guess it all must be catching up to him now. That’s why I’m thinking maybe he’s just not as ready as we thought he was and needs another year to mature.

#10

I’m going to take a different approach here, and that is with the vets. You want films of the back, to check for kissing spine. When you go in, make the appt, whatever - YOU ARE THE CLIENT. Bottom line is it’s your pocket book. Given what you’ve said, I would be suspicious of KS also. So you tell them,“I want films of the back. If they are clean, then I’m willing to proceed to X,Y,Z”(or what they suggest).
Seems like a lot of vet clinics are busy upselling diagnostics looking for zebras when starting with the most likely scenario first is what they should be doing.
Okay, rant over.
I would indeed get a lameness exam and films of any areas that are questionable. Then, yes, he is 5 and he’s been “here n there” doing things and yes maybe that’s catching up, BUT… you walk a fine line between he needs to go where you tell him and you being respectful of him maybe not being ready for what you’re asking. 5 starts the teenage years, where they test everything you’ve taught them and are big enough to back it up. So whatever you face him with, make sure he comes out of it confident, not shaken.

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#11

If you are going to get radiographs make sure that you get all four hooves

NPA can exacerbate back, hock, and stifle problems.

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#12

Just to cover all the bases:

Chiming in to mention bloodwork. MaKe sure his E levels are high-normal, and same with sel. if you are in a low selenium area. Problems in that area can show up as do you have mentioned.

I’d also get him on aminos.

#13

@Equestrianette it could be both, just a thought but if he goes somewhere off property and is worried and is carrying tension, if he does have KS, that tension/tightness he’s doing in his back could make that discomfort/pain a lot worse, which would explain his explosive reaction. Not saying “omgosh that’s for sure it!” but that’s definitely a possibility. My (mild) KS horse would be significantly worse after a big spook or something exciting happening outside the ring because he would become a hollow giraffe (even standing still) and then the tension/pain cycle would start, and he would escalate more and more.

Also what @AnastasiaBeaverhousen said about feet ^^^^^ As someone who spent thousands and thousands and thousands chasing mystery discomfort/pain with xrays, injections, Osphos, etc…a pair of 3D half mesh frog support pads made all of his problems go away in 24 hours. Years of frustration and huge expenses…and the solution was a $25 pair of pads :sweat_smile: NPA/caudal failure can make their entire hind end/back sore and can really make KS worse.

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#14

Just in looking at his full-body photo, he looks more Irish Draught-y than TB, even though you note that he 75% TB and 25% ID. That does make me wonder if he’s mentally and physically more ID as well–which is to say that he’s late maturing.

That might (and I stress might) mean that he’s more easily feeling over-faced right now and that he needs the whole training process to slow way down. The rearing and acting up at the trailer (no tack and no rider) really make me think that this is a horse saying, I can’t handle this right now, I don’t know what I’m supposed to be doing.

You definitely should pursue diagnostics for pain. I’d start with a more local vet who can do films of his back and his feet, and do a full lameness exam, if warranted. But, as another poster said above, you need to be clear about what you want the vet to do and what you’re not willing to do, at least at this moment. Some vets do have a ‘one size fits all’ lameness exam that may be well suited to horses with hock problems but may not be ideal for diagnosing other kinds of pain issues.

But, it may not be about pain and it may just be a question of proceeding much more slowly with the training.

Good luck.

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#15

Are you relatively near A&M, and that’s why you contacted them? If so, Texas Equine Hospital is in the same area, you might check with them about doing back x-rays and new views on the hock.

#16

Absolutely agree with this recommendation. My guy had very similar behavioral presentation. NPA irritated his SI, and ulcers were likely triggered by that discomfort. Addressed his feet and SI, treated the ulcers, and he’s a completely different horse.

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#17

Does he often stand camped under like that? If so, I would 1000% radiograph the feet to look for NPA. NPA in the hind feet will impact the suspensories, stifles, and back (among other things).

A story about lameness, blocking, and trying to save money: I was having very subtle behavioral and performance issues under saddle on my FEI horse (a horse known to be historically “difficult,” so it was initially chalked up to “personality”). Actively competing FEI dressage, and winning (despite the subtle issues). Presented with back pain. Radiographed the back, found mild KS. Vet said “case closed!” and we proceeded to do all the non-surgical stuff - physical therapy approach, steroid injections, shockwave, osphos, etc. The horse would improve, then when the work escalated again, she’d regress. Eventually vet said to start thinking about KS surgery if she wasn’t getting better. All this time we were working on fixing NPA in the hind feet, so I wasn’t about to do surgery until that was fixed and we knew there was nothing else bothering her.

Eventually, I had another vet out for a second opinion since the horse just wasn’t able to handle being put back in work, even though she’d do great with weeks of "rehab’ in a long/low/stretchy frame (for her back health). As soon as I’d start to bring her back to “work” and increase the workload because she felt so good, within weeks she’d struggle again. This second vet started with a lameness exam (NOTE: we had never done a lameness exam as the horse was never lame! She presented with back pain!), and she flexed verrrrrrry slightly positive on one hind leg. Like, I saw nothing, that’s how subtle it was. We blocked, it improved, then ultrasounded and found she had extremely inflamed proximal suspensories (PSD). Mind you, this horse competed at regionals, trained with Grand Prix trainers, etc, and no one ever thought she was lame. PSD can be very subtle, not present as lame, and be progressive and very painful.

Moral of the story: just because your horse isn’t lame doesn’t mean it’s not in the lower limbs. I would start with the lameness exam and blocking, personally. Vet #1 wanted to operate on my horse’s spine even though the issue was in the legs the whole time. I probably spent close to 4000 diagnosing and treating the KS, to say nothing of time lost chasing the wrong diagnosis. I’m glad I listened to my gut and got a second opinion. Oh, and the NPA was definitely part of the problem. Your horse’s posture in this photo looks like a horse trying to relieve pain caused by NPA (take my “internet diagnostics from a still photo” with a grain of salt :slight_smile:), so I would definitely investigate that, also.

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#18

So he has been basically ridden under saddle for just over a year and you are doing dressage tests and jumping at shows as well as at home?

That is a lot for a 4 year old to handle all at once. I don’t doubt he may be acting out, especially with the added pressure of showing. He could have both physical issues and be somewhat sour.

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#19

You said he is coming 5 this year. When did you buy him and do the PPE?

If he is swapping leads in the hind, to me, that’s a telltale sign that spur is bothering him. IMO.

I do think he also has a lot of behavioral problems going on. He’s not mentally handling what is being presented to him. But I also think he’s trying to tell you something is hurting him. Horses usually don’t swap leads on purpose. They might pig root if they’ve been given poor training. Assuming your training is good, then I’ve found the pig rooting to be when they are hurting somewhere.

He’s for sure got a spur in his right hock, so it makes perfect sense to me that they need to do flexions, and he’s going to flex “off” on that leg, and they are going to correctly do nerve blocks. I don’t think what they are presenting is out of line.

The vet is going to be able to make the BEST assessment of what’s going on if they can do the complete picture. Yes, I understand it is your pocket book and your decision on what’s done, but I also choose to trust my vet and trust what they think is best to explore.

He sounds “off” to me based on what you describe.

If they do not do flexions, how can they “medically clear” the hock? Or anything?
X-rays alone don’t necessarily tell you if the horse has kissing spine, in terms of if it is clinical or not. There could be findings but it may not be bothering the horse.
X-rays alone also do not tell you if (for example) a hock spur is bothering a horse. You have to pair it with the lameness exam, and the expertise of the vet, along with what you are experiencing at home with the horse.

Again, I don’t think the quote you were given is out of line because I think you need more than “just xrays”.

Now, as someone else commented above, you can certainly have that discussion with the vet, guiding on what to do next, based on what test A shows, and then after you do Test B, decide if you can afford and/or will do test C. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with communicating to the vet that your pocketbook is not unlimited but you also want to figure out what is wrong with your horse, and want to take things step by step and decide how to proceed after each finding.

Of course, just can’t answer your questions without a full vet assessment … but I personally think you have a combo of both based on the information you have provided.

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#20

You’re absolutely right. That all makes sense. I wanted a lameness exam which is the flexion and the jogging and then X-ray the hock and back. I got side tracked when they were talking about blocking and got tunnel vision. Either way he deserves a break.

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