The upper level stallions that I’m familiar with aren’t what I would call refined. So I’m curious what everyone comes up with.
upper level what?
I think it is hard to “lose” the refined look in older muscles stallions…hence, they are refined but don’t look it off the bat because of their muscling (due to hormones and sport). But just off the top of my head (and some are not Hano but share all the same blood lines) are Damon Hill, Desparados, Belissimo, Connery, diamond hit
Some others but not sure what level they are at because some are just schooled and not shown…Ampere, San Amour, Hochadel, Floriscount
I am sure I am missing a TON:)
Sorry… Dressage. Show jumpers tend to be more on the TB side of the scale these days, they seem to be easier to see when it comes to refinement.
I don’t see Desperados as being refined. He still looks fairly beefy to me. So how are you judging refinement? Cannon bone circumference or ???
I have a very refined Dancier filly, have you thought of using him?
Donarweiss is a GP stallion who stamps his foals with refinement
A few in the U.S. who went to FEI levels - Royal Prince, Benidetto, Schroeder, Donarweiss. I think Shakespeare is at FEI now. And not sure how high he went in competition, but Dacaprio is a lady’s horse type (smaller and refined). And what about Romancero H?
Some of these may not be as refined as you want, but they aren’t the heavy, old-fashioned type, either.
I’m not really looking for a refined stallion to breed to necessarily, but when I look at stallions doing GP, nothing screams “refined” to me. And when you go to inspections, they want refined. It made me wonder if truly “refined” stallions are making it to GP.
So the stallions mentioned above, what makes them refined? I always had a TB type of refinement in mind when thinking of the definition of refined and those stallions don’t look like TB types to me.
The demands of the job and the training to get there changes the musculature of the horse when it is at GP. I think that if you are looking for “refinement” of top level horses, you need to look at photos at age 4 or 5. After that, they put on bulk to do the job. A photo of Don Principe as a six yr old vs today would be very different.
But you have hit the nail on the head so to speak in your last post. The registries want and license refined stallions (light boned, fancy trot, long cannon) and so very few ever make it up the levels at all, yet alone FEI. The type of conformation to do the work at GP is not in “fashion” today, nor has it been for more than a decade. That is why so many Olympic International riders are bemoaning the lack of young prospects for GP. There have been a few that are either breeding their future horses themselves or working with specific breeder to buck the trends.
[QUOTE=Marydell;7358408]
The demands of the job and the training to get there changes the musculature of the horse when it is at GP. I think that if you are looking for “refinement” of top level horses, you need to look at photos at age 4 or 5. After that, they put on bulk to do the job. A photo of Don Principe as a six yr old vs today would be very different.
But you have hit the nail on the head so to speak in your last post. The registries want and license refined stallions (light boned, fancy trot, long cannon) and so very few ever make it up the levels at all, yet alone FEI. The type of conformation to do the work at GP is not in “fashion” today, nor has it been for more than a decade. That is why so many Olympic International riders are bemoaning the lack of young prospects for GP. There have been a few that are either breeding their future horses themselves or working with specific breeder to buck the trends.[/QUOTE]
I think this is a really good post.
Often what sells young is not the answer at the UL. I was shocked at some of the younger KWPN stallions and how refined they were. I think the idea of aesthetics needs to be separated from functioning form.
[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7357754]
I don’t see Desperados as being refined. He still looks fairly beefy to me. So how are you judging refinement? Cannon bone circumference or ???[/QUOTE]
I cannot find a conformation shot of him, but here is a piaffe picture. He has light boned limbs, refined head and neck. I think Marydell makes my point better in that you need to look at them young before hormones and sport change their body too much. If you look at him, even in the piaffe picture, you can see “underneath” that he is light (IMO).
http://www.gestuet-sprehe.de/en/stallions/desperados/#prettyPhoto[weitere]/0/
I can see it in that picture for sure… His body almost doesn’t look to match the legs.
[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7360287]
I can see it in that picture for sure… His body almost doesn’t look to match the legs.[/QUOTE]
That’s because he is using his ab/loin muscles to “tuck” and collect. It looks odd because he IS a more refined horse (check his legs/neck/head), but the musculature needed for GP dressage has been developed through years of work (I hope I’m expressing this clearly…
).
I find MaryDell’s post very thought-provoking, because I’ve been wondering if WB breeding registries are shooting themselves in the foot the last 10+yrs by giving preference to refined and “pretty” as opposed to horses built in a more “traditional” dressage frame…say, like a Lipizzaner.
Those horses are neither “refined” nor “typey”, but they were bred for the sport of (UL), traditional dressage, so obviously capable.
I wonder if the sport will begin to change because of the type of horse being bred or the other way around…OT, I know, but just typing out loud.
Yes I have to chime into Marydell’s and Kyzteke’s posts. Knowing the thread is acutally about something else.
I also think we are shooting ourselves in the foot (and I am not alone, I can Name at least 4 breeders I know with the same thoguhts). This is why I stick to what I do with my horses (breeding program). There will be a need to find the horses that can stand up to the work that a GP horse has to do.
Nevertheless I have Close TB influence in my horses and am expecting foal by a TB on top of a 25% TB mare for a 2014. Not because of the refinement. But due to other traits they can bring to the breed. And because I really like this stallion. Refinement in my eyes is mistaken with pretty and good looking. But do not get me to that discussion.
In addition to this ridiculoius looking for refinement (just for the sake of “prettiness” - please do not get me wrong) people are also mistaking the impressive frontleg movement including kneeaction with freedom of shoulder. And by being in awe for that frontleg they do not even get to look at the hindlegs, their usage and anbilities. And by this they are not able to distinguish a good dressage horse from a expressively moving horse.
We had this discussion here in the early days of this forum were I really went into trouble with a breeder that had never sat on a horse before and tried to explain to others (riders !) what to look for in a dressage horse.
I think we are only a fews years away from the point where we (the riders) will struggle to fine the horses we (they) need. Until than breeders like myself need to try to survive, stick to what we believe in and find buyers that appreciate the kind of horses we breed not only at a point where they are ridden and under saddle and 5, 6 years old, but much earlier.
Well and in my eyes Desperados is a tank plus I have no clue how these hindlegs manage to do piaffe.
We bred to Devon Heir and got a lovely filly last spring. I think he went up to Prix St. Georges, so I don’t know if that is high enough for you. He didn’t have soundness problems, owner just wanted him to breed for a while. Beautiful head and neck, very elegant type with fabulous movement and a great disposition (that D and R cross). He seems to throw height and refinement and generally improve on the mare. Mare is a Pik L daughter and about 16 hands, but more old style. Mare is nice, but her daughter is gorgeous and really laid back to work with. Filly was a leggy 13.3 at 7 months, so she looks like she’ll be tall and more modern type, although she has excellent bone and a strong hind end. Conceived on first try with fresh cooled, so swimmers seemed good. PM me if you want photos (but no, she is not for sale).
[QUOTE=alexandra;7361346]
Well and in my eyes Desperados is a tank plus I have no clue how these hindlegs manage to do piaffe.[/QUOTE]
Very interesting. When I look at him on video (I have never seen him in person) he looks refined to me…good length of leg, refined head, lovely neck/ not too heavy. Yes, his body is “thick” but in the videos to me it always just looked as if muscled and dare I say even a little chubby:)
Maybe the question is what does “refined” mean? To me, on one end, is to not be “old fashioned” with a big roman head, heavy short legs, heavy body/ frame. To the extreme it is almost “spidery” looking…very light boned/ too light boned, head bordering on extreme Arabesque, long swan-like neck, narrow body (essentially an Arab like WB).
In that vein I am happy with refined stallions that lighten a draft like body, improved type (from over the old fashioned Roman/ draft like WB), lengthens the leg, but keeps bone, and keeps power in their movement. What I don’t like is a horse that is too light boned, too spider like in movement (ie; long throwing legs). That is the trend I think worries many. And to me looks very park horse/ carriage horse.
[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7362082]
Very interesting. When I look at him on video (I have never seen him in person) he looks refined to me…good length of leg, refined head, lovely neck/ not too heavy. Yes, his body is “thick” but in the videos to me it always just looked as if muscled and dare I say even a little chubby:)
Maybe the question is what does “refined” mean? To me, on one end, is to not be “old fashioned” with a big roman head, heavy short legs, heavy body/ frame. To the extreme it is almost “spidery” looking…very light boned/ too light boned, head bordering on extreme Arabesque, long swan-like neck, narrow body (essentially an Arab like WB).
In that vein I am happy with refined stallions that lighten a draft like body, improved type (from over the old fashioned Roman/ draft like WB), lengthens the leg, but keeps bone, and keeps power in their movement. What I don’t like is a horse that is too light boned, too spider like in movement (ie; long throwing legs). That is the trend I think worries many. And to me looks very park horse/ carriage horse.[/QUOTE]
Is this not essentially a comparison between the terms “refinement” and “modernization”?
Hmm, I really don’t look much at musculature when evaluating a horse for “refinement”. I pay more attention to bone and head structure. As MH said, by the time a horse has reached upper levels - esp. GP, and esp. in stallions - it has put on a huge amount of muscle mass that can cause the body to look “bulky”. Stallions can also get pretty thick in the neck as they age - there is a reason many of the stallion stations rely on conformation photos taken at licensing or shortly thereafter to market the stallions. In contrast to the musculature, the skeletal system doesn’t change much - the legs, head, etc., are still either refined or not. Heads will sometimes look “coarser” as the horse ages, but a refined head on a young stallion will still look refined at age 15 compared to the head on a 15-y/o “old-fashioned” type.
As for registries pushing the modern look - I think it has been a two way street. Breeders want foals that sell fast - a pretty, flashy moving foal is going to attract buyers a lot quicker than a more clunky looking foal. So breeders use stallions that can put fancy foals on the ground. The quicker the breeders can sell their foals, the more they will stay in the breeding game, and more foals being registered means more money for the registries. And if some of them sell for huge amounts at an auction, even better for the registries. They are businesses trying to stay solvent in a tough economic climate.
I think Sandro Hit is a perfect example of the above. He was putting very typey, pretty, flashy moving foals on the ground, and they were selling like hotcakes. More and more dressage breeders started using him, because they also wanted foals that would “fly off the shelves”. PS wasn’t even into dressage stallions that much before SH came along, but now the dressage stallions in his barn are as equally important to his bottom line as the jumper stallions.
All good points!
Would you agree that:
Refinement is: smaller pretty head, finer legs, longer legs, less mass. Muscle development on an upper level horse is expected and normal to be on the heavy side.
Does refinement also bring with it long cannon bones to add to leg length?
Of the stallions going GP, which would you say have long cannon bones?
