Nasty horse....comes at you with jaws open

If the owners aren’t happy with your defending yourself in a dangerous situation, then I would suggest informing them they can handle their own horse and do what you can to stay clear of this animal. OP you are within your right to refuse dealing with this horse. You do not owe your employer your skin and blood.

There is biting. And then there is serious f’ing problem biting. Those chiming in that the OP even should entertain the idea of “training” an animal like that don’t know the difference between the two.

As an owner of the latter, I know first hand that a serious biter is an animal who’s flip has switched and doesn’t have a problem crossing the line of purposefully causing serious harm with intent to disable or worse. Serious biters can never ever be trusted. Even after years of angelic behavior. Never. Ever.

I feel terrible for the horse in question, to have his brain so thoroughly scrambled.

OP, the only thing you owe anyone is to yourself to stay safe.

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How do the owners even know what happened?

If they were there, and witnessed this directly, THEY should be dealing with the horse.

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Problem is, the OP is not a trainer and should not come to the horse owner pretending this and this idea could work because those ideas come from strangers from the internet, and the OP has never tried them.

I never give ideas, tricks, training advice when I believe it could be dangerous to even try.

And the OP is not the horse owner or does s/he have to deal with said horse on a regular basis.

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Like others have said. It is not your job to train/ retrain this horse. It is also not your job to have to deal with him either. I guarantee you are not being paid enough to deal with any injury that you might receive from him. The person to talk to is your employer not the idiots that own this horse. Just as someone said - this horse is a huge liability for a boarding stable. Hopefully the barn owner will realize this. If not - you need to find another job if you are expected to handle him.

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Thanks for the replies. I will no longer be interacting with this horse. He has been a huge problem, not just for me, but others, and a very difficult horse to back as well. Just something in his brain. He does not want to play, nicely or otherwise. The owner is a very good pro, grand prix rider, and I’ve seen her work in action, she is actually quite amazing with most horses, this guy is just a piece of work. She does not put her staff at risk, but i was hoping for some magical solutions. I’ve dealt with bad boys before, but this one takes the cake.
Was kind of hoping for some magical solution, so I could impress my boss! lol

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Unfortunately, no majik! :lol:

You said the owner was currently training the horse and getting some results - and now that she’s a good pro, I will suggest that you learn from her.
Dedication will impress her even more.

Some horses need time and patience - and 1 person to interact with while learning. So they are never surprised with a very fixed routine and the technique is always the same.

Been there, done that (in fact, the horse owner was more complicated to train then her horse she had in in training with me…) Oh well.

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Oh, so you work for the owner of this horse? That’s pretty different than if you’re employed by a barn owner who is boarding this horse for others.

Just don’t handle the horse. She knows the horse is a bad actor. Stay away from it.

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Soooo dramatic sighs.

Removing yourself from a situation can mean getting fired in plenty of situations. I assume that if the OP could simply “opt out” then there would be literally no point in this thread so the fact that there is a thread means that the OP needs to interact with this horse to keep her job.

Literally no where did I suggest that the OP smack this horse or go crank on a studchain to fix this situation.

I had to handle two horses like this in my past as part of my employment. Both were classic ulcers types with owners who knew the behavior was bad but didn’t really want to address it.

One was a really aggressive biter who would snake his head and wait until you weren’t looking and tended to get light in the front when up. It was not my job to fix the problem but rather to get him from point A to point B (a distance of about 100 feet) once a week filling in for the normal person. I walked him on a lunge line with a lunge whip essentially parallel lunging him down to the paddock. I wasn’t smacking him or threatening with the whip but treating it like an exercise. He was actively in work, lunged regularly, and while he would be an ass for normal leading, he was pretty safe from a distance of 6-10 feet using this method. He got a pile of treats while I unhaltered and backed away. Is that how I would fix it…uhhh no but it kept me safe.

The other was a 17h guy who was gelded late and would strike. I eventually found a different place of employment because he was truly dangerous but I finagled ways to keep myself safe while figuring out my exit. The compromise I came to with the owner was a stud chain and a tub full of hay. I literally dragged the tub full of hay by a rope and bribed a 1,300 lb horse into a barn. The stud chain was never used but he “understood” the idea of a chain (OTTB) and it physically kept him further away from me. I told the owner it wasn’t my job to fix the problem and I needed to stay safe. This was a combination that worked out for us. I felt absurd doing it but again, not my problem to fix. My goal was to keep myself safe.

It’s great that you’ve got nothing to prove but not everyone has the option to “nope” out of employment.

OP, work with the owners to identify a plan that has their approval and keeps you safe.

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Uh no. I’m sorry NOBODY should be in a situation where they’re forced to risk their life dealing with a horse like this. Anyone telling you otherwise is doing you a huge disservice. And for the record, OP already said she did opt out (which good for her.)

It’s also very clear that you’ve never dealt with a horse like this. “Ulcery” horses do not fit this definition. They nip. It’s “hey don’t touch my belly bite” not an “I’m going to kill you bite”. This horse is the latter according to OP’s description which means you have no room to be telling anyone that it’s ok to be putting themselves in these situations because you clearly don’t understand the situation at all. This is another one of those things that horse people need to come together on and quit normalizing. If an employer is asking you to deal with a horse like this, they don’t value you and it’s not a healthy work environment.

People get hurt when they assume you deal with horses like this just like you’d deal with some nippy warmbloods with shit ground manners. Most competent horse people can handle those horses safely. That’s manageable. THIS is not that.

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Have they ruled out possible health issues/ pain that might make him aggressive on the ground and under saddle?

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Again, thanks for all the suggestions and replies. He has been gone over with a fine tooth comb, it is %100 attitude. His owner/my employer as well as the stable manager are absolutely aware, and do not put the staff at risk. I am not sure what I have been doing wrong or different, but the behavior with me had escalated. I would not try to ‘train’ him, or whatever, but when I did have to either halter him, or move him, it was not as bad at first. Lately, getting worse. When I said he met my fist, I meant he came at me with jaws open and my fist was in the way. I was not aggressively hitting, but I was defending myself. I am not going to let a big horse bite me!!
After talking with the manager, I won’t have to deal with him, so that is good.
And I am watching how they deal with him, hoping to learn from them. I’ve never met a horse like this, in almost 30 years of horse experience. I’ve met some bad dudes, but this one takes the cake. Then again, sometimes the most talented ones are the most difficult.

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Is he stalled? Sounds like he needs turnout? Put him in a herd and let him learn some manners from other horses.

Even a horse that doesn’t typically bite or just nips is capable of doing serious damage.

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This is because it is not just what you do. It is how you do it. It is your air of confidence, your way of breathing. The way you hold your head.

This comes from experience and does not get learned overnight.

My gelding I can control with a look from a distance. So can experienced horse people.

If you are not experienced you don’t interact with him without a halter on.

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I am not inexperienced by any means, I’ve dealt with all types over many years, I was only posting because I’ve never met such a nasty horse before, and was looking for any other ideas from people who may have dealt with such a situation before. But thanks again for your opinion.

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What I meant is it is the opinion of the horse if you are experienced, not us.

OP, I think this horse is a “beyond normal limits” case. Don’t let anyone make you feel bad for his behavior toward you or your asking for help or insight.

Everyone must admit that we rarely see this kind of balls-to-the-wall aggression or aggressive-looking posture in the horses we meet around barns. If you were watching the wrong pasture situation at the right moment, you might see it for a split second. But most horses non-feral horses would never come at a person this way.

I am educated and experienced with horses, and I’m willing to get into it with a horse if he has a question about whether or not he gets to use his size, strength and his weapons (his teeth and hooves) against me. But a horse coming at me with jaws open? I don’t think it has ever happened and if it did, I’d have some hard questions for whoever owned him. I would not be on the same side of a fence with a horse like that until I was convinced that this behavior could be reliably halted. That’s because this horse also knows that coming toward someone intending to bite hard is a balls-to-the-wall aggressive (or perhaps defensive) posture. I just don’t think you can negotiate or work around or ignore a horse who is in the mindset that someone might die. It’s also no way for a horse to live if he has to get that amped up every day.

Discretion is the better part of valor and also a long career with horses.

ETA: Oops, I just read far enough to see that you had a solution (you don’t have to handle him anymore) and that the owner is a competent pro! Now I am intrigued. I want to see her majik answer. I’d love to watch her work with this horse to improve him.

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@mvp nailed it. Nobody is inexperienced for refusing to handle a horse like this. Ironically, all the people who are saying stupid stuff like “oh you need to just smack him to end it” or “use a whip” or “it’s about your confidence and how you cary yourself” are so blatantly inexperienced and have never seen a horse like this.

There are (thankfully) not many of them like this so people just think that because the usual tricks that would work on horses that they’ve seen bite will work on this horse. In reality that method would make things a million times worse. Most horses that bite are biting because they’re trying to tell you “something hurts” or “I don’t like that”. This horse is probably biting because he feels like you are a predator that he needs to defend himself against to stay alive. If you go in with a whip, thinking “this will show him who’s boss” you’re just going to make him more defensive because you made yourself more of a threat.

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I think the people who think that, with those open-jawed horse they can get to the place where they can put him in his place “with a look” (like someone’s gelding does). are going to a gun fight with a pocket knife of knowledge. Or more accurately, they are not appreciating or acknowledging that the open-jawed horse has already passed several crucial levels of escalation. If his feet are moving toward you, and the jaws are open (he’s not just snaking his neck, but standing still) that’s yet another level; I’m not sure which version of “coming at you” the OP meant. In any case negotiating power who has already pulled out all the stops to show you his power is going to take a lot… I mean, really “a lot” a lot to make into an OK one.

I do think the other horse who postured like a bad-ass that was mentioned in this thread-- the neglected bad-actor who was doing that for attention-- is usually distinguishable in their behavior. I can tell you the differences between “Hmm… maybe this horse will listen if I talk to him about which of us can go more alpha mare…” and “Holy, shit, life is too short to be on the same side of a fence with him; I’m out,” but I won’t bore you with my laundry list of signs of each kind of horse unless y’all want to know. I do agree, however, that there are some horses who have learned the rather backward art of getting attention (even bad attention) by looking ferocious. And then there are some (like my mare) who are quite alpha, sensitive and “don’t have a filter” with unknown people. These beasties goes up the DefCon scale fast enough that people think they could be dangerous to them. But horses like this who have handlers who see them escalate well before any actually threatening behavior happens, can be engage with and taught how to not do that and, ultimately, not feel that they need to jack up the DefCon. My mare is extremely broke-- in part, because of her nature-- and you’d have to try a bit to get her to think she could dominate you because she has not been handled in a way where 1. That was allowed; and 2. Where she was “just told who was boss” without being offered some comfort and security from her handler.

Back to the OP’s horse: What would worry me about a horse who as in a normal, working barn situation for some time and who still has such a “beyond normal limits” kind of behavior is predictability. I think a horse coming toward people with his jaws open is living in “battle conditions” in his mind. No one makes good, rational or predictable decisions when they are under that kind of stress. So even if I got one like this to be obedient and trusting… appearing to trust me, most of the time, could I see and prevent something that sent him spinning up into that level of defensiveness in all times and all places? I don’t know. That’s why such an extreme, stress-expressing behavior would concern me.

Interesting case! It really make you think.

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Thanks MVP and Equkelly for the thoughtful insights, and everyone else. “Battle conditions in his mind” is exactly what it sounds like. This is not the kind of horse you can or should fight. It only makes it worse, you guys are absolutely right. I’ve watched the owner and the barn manager, and they definitely deal with him differently, so he has an expectation of how he will be treated. I am hopeful that they are successful and I am glad to have the opportunity to watch them work with him. I will be the first to admit that I still have a lot to learn when it comes to horses, that it is a never ending process. And I am thankful, also, that they are aware of the problem and not willing to put me in danger. This truly is not a normal situation with just a ‘bad’ horse. I know there is more to his backstory.

Here’s a funny thing though. Now that I am not handling him at all, when I say hello to him as I pass his stall, he whickers at me. I say hello to all the horses in the barn, in passing, and he is the only one that answers. As if he enjoyed his game with me and now he misses it? Bugger

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I’ve known two horses like this, and they were half-siblings. One was much more of an “attacker” than the other, but both had some screws loose. One of them was my best friend’s horse, and she had him from the time he was a weanling (actually, even before he was weaned). He was a bit of a pill even as a baby, and my friend is kind of a no-nonsense disciplinarian when it comes to horses. Over the years, I watched this horse come at her with ears pinned and mouth open, and he always got a “Come to Jesus” session for it. He’d behave for the most part, but if he felt pressured or threatened, he’d get nasty. And I love her, but my friend tended to pick at the horse a lot, nag him a lot, correct every little thing he did…if he put a whisker wrong, he was getting a stern correction…so I think he often felt like he needed to defend himself. He already wasn’t exactly a “pocket pony” by any means, and her rather strict way of dealing with him didn’t help. He also had some pain issues that made him cranky, but all he ever got when he’d show his crankiness was more stern corrections and punishment. Eventually, he didn’t have much use for people because they made him miserable.

One day in the stall at a show, my friend was “loving on him” (he was annoyed by it and she thought it was funny). She couldn’t see his face because of the way she was standing with her arms around his neck. She kept poking him and he kept pinning his ears, and I has just gotten the words, “You better watch him,” out of my mouth when he went full-on savage and grabbed her by the shoulder and literally threw her across the stall and onto the ground. He then wheeled and had his hind feet lined up ready to kick her when I intervened with a pitchfork and stopped him from probably killing my friend. That was easily over a decade ago and she still has the scar he left on her shoulder. She wound up selling him with full disclosure about his behavior quirks, and of course, the buyers (like we all do) figured it wouldn’t happen with them. One day the new owner was riding him. She stopped and had a friend adjust something on his bridle for her. The horse kind of made a snarky face at the friend and she instinctively popped him on the nose and told him to quit. He attacked her, with his owner on his back trying to pull him away with no luck. Took the woman he attacked to the ground and was mauling her, ignoring his owner/rider completely.

Went and saw this horse’s half-brother (same dam, sweet mare) when he was a weanling and he came over to the fence to say “hi” and after standing there pleasantly with his ears up for a minute, for no apparent reason, rushed at the fence and lunged at us with ears pinned and mouth wide open. I saw that same horse try to throw himself over the top of a stall front that was at least 8 feet high. I also heard stories about him once he was under saddle. They said he’d be trotting along fine with other horses in the ring and then would suddenly slam on brakes and start running backwards trying to kick anyone around him.

All of this to say…some of them are just special. And there was no amount of punishing or discipline that was going to change those horses. I think something like clicker training would have been much more beneficial. They were already pretty sure humans were wretched, no need to prove them right.

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