Nasty lease dispute - WWYD?

[ivegotanalter]

Would like to know how other people would handle this lease situation which has gone bad. Sorry for the essay but trying to include all the facts.

• trainer asks to take hunter on trial for a few days for client that needs a short show season lease of 4 months

• trainer and client love horse. Agree on 4 month lease fee of $6000

• Horse is 12 yrs old with long show record childrens hunters and 3’6 hunters. Has not had any maintenance done ever. I’m not aware of any soundness issues with this horse.

• trainer wants to do ppe for the lease. Vet says positive flexions on hocks and elsewhere and says she sees coffin effusion. Also states horse is mildly off on lunge on one hind and one front. They do NOT xrays. Vet apparently tells trainer she should pass but if she wants to keep the horse it should have hocks and coffins injected.

• I’m shocked at these supposed findings and expect horse is coming back and lease not going through and have no problem with that. Trainer however wants to see if horse is comfortable on banamine and wants to show it the next weekend before deciding.

• horse shows and pins in all over fences and the hack

• trainer requests reduction in lease fee and they will do the maintenance on hocks and coffins. We agree to reduce lease fee to 5k and they are to get this done as part of the deal. They inject hocks only, say horse looks great. Show again and pin again in multiple classes.

• Later complain that horse is off in front but they never injected coffins as agreed. They refuse to pay lease fee until this is done but they end up only injecting one coffin and fetlock on same leg, now saying other coffin doesn’t need doing. Horse is apparently sound after this.

• By now they’ve had the horse for 6 WEEKS without paying lease fee or sending back signed lease agreement. Finally get the both after telling them they are not showing anymore without it.

• I offered multiple times during this 6 weeks of non-payment to just take the horse back if they aren’t happy with him. I also offer a replacement horse that is even at the same show for them to try and they refuse to even look at it as they say they are happy with the original horse.

• They continue to show and pin well.

• Now after 10 weeks of having the horse, and 1.5 months left on lease, they complain horse is sore again in front and are demanding to return the horse and get a 50% refund on the lease. They have vet out and want me to pay to xray horse, which I refuse. They have him xrayed and say reduced joint space/arthritic changes in that coffin and that therefore it’s a pre-existing issue and they are entitled to their money back. They say if I don’t pay up they will sue me for 15k which they say is their total expense on the horse between lease, vet, training, showing etc.

• Lease states “as-is where-is” with no warranties on soundness or fitness for the purpose etc and they had the horse for SIX weeks before paying, and went into the lease with a full ppe and the findings of their vet at that time. They also never paid for the mortality and major medical insurance that was part of the deal.

• Horse was dropped at a show I was at yesterday and I trailered him home even though horse was to be returned at their expense as per the lease.

SO are these people owed a refund on the remainder of the lease? Would they be successful in court?

[Scribbler]

I would get a lawyer versed in the contract law in your area to write them a letter telling them to go away. Really can’t advise online.

Remember that anyone can run around saying they are going to sue you. Takes no money no brains and no effort to say that.

If they actually get a lawyer to send you a letter that ups things a little. Otherwise hot air.

So contact a lawyer first. Don’t respond to their emails or whatever. Let the lawyer do that.

[CHT]

You could prorate the lease fee remaining, less the cost of picking up the horse, and send it to them, marked somehow that if they deposit the fee return they are absolving you of any other liability (I am not wording this well, but thinking of how insurance companies will send you a cheque, and if you deposit it, they consider the claim finalized).

From their perspective, they likely feel like they just paid a whole bunch of money to diagnose and try to fix your horse for you. They fact you didn’t know the horse had those issues isn’t their fault, and I doubt they lied to you about the vet’s findings…but they did get significant use out of the horse, and could have pulled out once their vet made their findings.

[Scribbler]

@CHT

You could prorate the lease fee remaining, less the cost of picking up the horse, and send it to them, marked somehow that if they deposit the fee return they are absolving you of any other liability (I am not wording this well, but thinking of how insurance companies will send you a cheque, and if you deposit it, they consider the claim finalized).

From their perspective, they likely feel like they just paid a whole bunch of money to diagnose and try to fix your horse for you. They fact you didn’t know the horse had those issues isn’t their fault, and I doubt they lied to you about the vet’s findings…but they did get significant use out of the horse, and could have pulled out once their vet made their findings.

I would get legal advice before I sent them any money. Many lawyers give a low cost first consultation. If you send money you might be admitting liability or something like that.

[Daventry]

As others have already suggested, I would seek out the advice of an experienced equine lawyer. I have a list of equine lawyers on my website at www.equineappraisers.com/equineattorney.html Make sure to find a lawyer in your own State, as contract law may be different from State to State. If your contract stated as is with no warranties and they opted to do a pre-purchase before leasing, I don’t think they have a leg to stand on, though, I am not a lawyer. As everyone else already mentioned, anyone can threaten to sue. Whether they go through with it and whether they win is another matter.

Next time you do a lease or sale, make sure the contract is signed and money has been given up front BEFORE you release the horse. You lucked out finally getting your lease signed and the cash.

[BeeHoney]

Echoing others, you would do well to consult an attorney. I personally don’t think that they are entitled to any refund as they had full opportunity to examine the horse prior to agreeing to the lease and made the decision to lease based on the findings of their own veterinarian.

I want to make one other side point though, which is that as an owner you or your agent (someone very experienced who represents your interests) should always be present at a vetting, no matter how inconvenient. I know that’s tough in many instances, but 1) there are plenty of shady vets out there, and 2) if you are not present you may not have access to the complete information that is obtained at the vetting and it can be misrepresented to you. For instance, there are a LOT of vets out there that make a killing on their cottage industry of doing unnecessary joint injections on show horses because show horse clients will pay unquestioningly for that service. The vet in question could have honesty done normal flexions and found them to be positive, or they could have manipulated the situation to get their piece of the deal by insisting that the horse needed a bunch of expensive maintenance.

[JenEM]

In addition to a consult with an attorney with equine experience, I’d also suggest getting your own vet out to examine the horse and possibly x-ray, just to verify what is or is not going on with the horse at it’s point of return to you.

[IPEsq]

@JenEM

In addition to a consult with an attorney with equine experience, I’d also suggest getting your own vet out to examine the horse and possibly x-ray, just to verify what is or is not going on with the horse at it’s point of return to you.

For this situation, you probably don’t even really need any special lawyer with equine experience although that wouldn’t hurt. You thankfully have a written contract that they did sign. Did you also write in the obligation for them to do the vet treatments?

There is no way they should get their show or training expenses back. That’s just them being full of hot air. Sounds like you should be the one to send a letter first. But I also like the idea of having your vet do a workup. To the extent any of what their vet told them was not necessary, having your own independent vet report wouldn’t be a bad idea.

[RedHorses]

I’d hold off on doing anything until their lawyer sends you a letter. Then I’d find my own lawyer for a consult. I wouldn’t want to waste money on a lawyer if I didn’t have to.

I think that because they did the pre lease exam, they agreed to pay the lease and the vet for what needed to be done, and signed the contract for the as-is horse they don’t have a leg to stand on. And owe you cost of shipping the horse home, per the lease contract.

[Bogie]

@Scribbler

I would get a lawyer versed in the contract law in your area to write them a letter telling them to go away. Really can’t advise online.

Remember that anyone can run around saying they are going to sue you. Takes no money no brains and no effort to say that.

If they actually get a lawyer to send you a letter that ups things a little. Otherwise hot air.

So contact a lawyer first. Don’t respond to their emails or whatever. Let the lawyer do that.

This. Until you get a letter from a lawyer, do nothing. If they do, contact a lawyer and have the lawyer respond. Don’t talk to them. I know that it’s upsetting to feel threatened by a law suit but until there’s actual legal action, your best course of action is to stay mum.

@CHT

You could prorate the lease fee remaining, less the cost of picking up the horse, and send it to them, marked somehow that if they deposit the fee return they are absolving you of any other liability (I am not wording this well, but thinking of how insurance companies will send you a cheque, and if you deposit it, they consider the claim finalized).

From their perspective, they likely feel like they just paid a whole bunch of money to diagnose and try to fix your horse for you. They fact you didn’t know the horse had those issues isn’t their fault, and I doubt they lied to you about the vet’s findings…but they did get significant use out of the horse, and could have pulled out once their vet made their findings.

Do not send them money. They did a full PPE and chose to continue working with the horse. They competed the horse and did well. They made their own choices with the full knowledge of their vet’s recommendations which they chose to ignore.

[FAW]

I hate leases. Especially when someone is playing with you. I once spent 10K once getting a lease to end. Horse dead lame after a month I into the lease

[LovesHorses]

So they got 6 weeks worth of use on a show horse for free, a PPE that had soundness issues and want their $2,500 back (remember, not $3,000 because of the maintenance)?? I’d tell them to kick rocks. How about you are now stuck feeding a horse you weren’t expecting back! Doesn’t the contract say it must be returned in the same, sound condition? I am understanding they sent back a sore horse.

If I were in their shoes, I would have re-structured the lease after the PPE to make monthly payments.

[OneTwoMany]

@ivegotanalter

Would like to know how other people would handle this lease situation which has gone bad. Sorry for the essay but trying to include all the facts.

• trainer asks to take hunter on trial for a few days for client that needs a short show season lease of 4 months

• trainer and client love horse. Agree on 4 month lease fee of $6000

• Horse is 12 yrs old with long show record childrens hunters and 3’6 hunters. Has not had any maintenance done ever. I’m not aware of any soundness issues with this horse.

• trainer wants to do ppe for the lease. Vet says positive flexions on hocks and elsewhere and says she sees coffin effusion. Also states horse is mildly off on lunge on one hind and one front. They do NOT xrays. Vet apparently tells trainer she should pass but if she wants to keep the horse it should have hocks and coffins injected.

• I’m shocked at these supposed findings and expect horse is coming back and lease not going through and have no problem with that. Trainer however wants to see if horse is comfortable on banamine and wants to show it the next weekend before deciding.

• horse shows and pins in all over fences and the hack

• trainer requests reduction in lease fee and they will do the maintenance on hocks and coffins. We agree to reduce lease fee to 5k and they are to get this done as part of the deal. They inject hocks only, say horse looks great. Show again and pin again in multiple classes.

• Later complain that horse is off in front but they never injected coffins as agreed. They refuse to pay lease fee until this is done but they end up only injecting one coffin and fetlock on same leg, now saying other coffin doesn’t need doing. Horse is apparently sound after this.

• By now they’ve had the horse for 6 WEEKS without paying lease fee or sending back signed lease agreement. Finally get the both after telling them they are not showing anymore without it.

• I offered multiple times during this 6 weeks of non-payment to just take the horse back if they aren’t happy with him. I also offer a replacement horse that is even at the same show for them to try and they refuse to even look at it as they say they are happy with the original horse.

• They continue to show and pin well.

• Now after 10 weeks of having the horse, and 1.5 months left on lease, they complain horse is sore again in front and are demanding to return the horse and get a 50% refund on the lease. They have vet out and want me to pay to xray horse, which I refuse. They have him xrayed and say reduced joint space/arthritic changes in that coffin and that therefore it’s a pre-existing issue and they are entitled to their money back. They say if I don’t pay up they will sue me for 15k which they say is their total expense on the horse between lease, vet, training, showing etc.

• Lease states “as-is where-is” with no warranties on soundness or fitness for the purpose etc and they had the horse for SIX weeks before paying, and went into the lease with a full ppe and the findings of their vet at that time. They also never paid for the mortality and major medical insurance that was part of the deal.

• Horse was dropped at a show I was at yesterday and I trailered him home even though horse was to be returned at their expense as per the lease.

SO are these people owed a refund on the remainder of the lease? Would they be successful in court?

Are they owed a refund? No, based on what you’ve told us. However if you were working with a customer that you value and you wanted to preserve that relationship, I would probably pro rate the lease fee for the 1.5 months minus the hauling fee. But it doesn’t sound like that applies here.

Would they be successful in court? It depends on the judge and how persuasive their arguments might be. We only have one side of the story. The lease contract will carry a lot of weight. If it was breached in any way by the lessor or if there were any false statements in the lease, the lessee will have a leg up. Otherwise, I wouldn’t worry too much.

[findeight]

Dont think you owe them anything if the as is where is contract was signed. Might see a lawyer if for no other reason then to be sure this doesn’t happen to you again.

But, just a thought here, you really don’t know if this is a pre existing condition or not if you have never looked and just assume he is as sound as he was at 3… Some horses are stoic and this one sounds like a real trooper. He has many years of regularly jumping 3-3’6" at shows and in lessons and he is well into middle age when the wear and tear of all those miles start to show up.

When you lease one out, it is very much in your best interest to have a PPE style exam done including current (as in new) x rays of all four. Without recent x rays, you can’t know if they had a shady vet or a very good vet who saw the effects of the wear and tear starting to show up in an aging horse. Maybe the footing at his new barn aggravated something just getting started, maybe they are full of crap.

Have you ever had him x rayed and if so, when? Be embarrassing if you ended up in court and their x rays did show a developing condition and you had nothing recent to compare them with to show they are mistaken.

[amb]

@OneTwoMany

Are they owed a refund? No, based on what you’ve told us. However if you were working with a customer that you value and you wanted to preserve that relationship, I would probably pro rate the lease fee for the 1.5 months minus the hauling fee. But it doesn’t sound like that applies here.

That. They sound like vexatious jerks trying to take you for a ride. If you get any written demands run them by a lawyer, otherwise move on.

[EmilyM]

Sounds like they were trying to get use of the horse without paying. Ridiculous. I guess having an attorney would be the safest, but if the lease says no refunds, I don’t see how they are owed anything.

It blows my mind these something for nothing people.

I leased a horse that hadn’t been shod properly before I got him. He had a corn as a result. I didn’t know until we shod him after the PPE. and it did bother him from time to time. But I knew that was a risk I assumed leasing a horse. So I got him special pads and maintained the heck out of his feet. I mean, they aren’t cars. Stuff happens. You use them and they get sore. You still have to give them proper care even if you are just leasing them. People are gross.

[scrbear11]

I missed something. Did they ever pay the $5k lease? I assume they did somewhere in the 6 week update, where they have not paid the lease, and the 10 week update when they demanded a refund?

Out of sight, out of mind. I bet they are blowing smoke. Assuming they finally signed the contract (which you never updated after 6 week complaint update), you seem to have a solid contract. They don’t stand a chance.

Your mistakes -

#1 - any revision to price, expectations, etc. should be made in writing and signed.
#2 - Relying on the opinion of their vet. If horse has never had issues you should have requested the horse be returned immediately so your personal vet could give second opinion.
#3 - Allowing horse to be shown while “sore” and on drugs. (IF there is something wrong, that just made it 10x worse).
#4 - Allowing horse to leave your property without a signed lease agreement.

I’m assuming you a professional with a few horses in your barn since you offered a replacement. It just floors me that these simple things, especially #4 are not done. I hear about this over and over again. I’m an amateur. Even #4 seems rational to me.

[Pembroke]

@scrbear11

I missed something. Did they ever pay the $5k lease? I assume they did somewhere in the 6 week update, where they have not paid the lease, and the 10 week update when they demanded a refund?

Out of sight, out of mind. I bet they are blowing smoke. Assuming they finally signed the contract (which you never updated after 6 week complaint update), you seem to have a solid contract. They don’t stand a chance.

Your mistakes -

#1 - any revision to price, expectations, etc. should be made in writing and signed.
#2 - Relying on the opinion of their vet. If horse has never had issues you should have requested the horse be returned immediately so your personal vet could give second opinion.
#3 - Allowing horse to be shown while “sore” and on drugs. (IF there is something wrong, that just made it 10x worse).
#4 - Allowing horse to leave your property without a signed lease agreement.

I’m assuming you a professional with a few horses in your barn since you offered a replacement. It just floors me that these simple things, especially #4 are not done. I hear about this over and over again. I’m an amateur. Even #4 seems rational to me.

This is direct from the first post. Bold is mine.

• By now they’ve had the horse for 6 WEEKS without paying lease fee or sending back signed lease agreement. Finally get the both after telling them they are not showing anymore without it.

So, OP did have a signed contract and money.

[Pembroke]

@scrbear11

I missed something. Did they ever pay the $5k lease? I assume they did somewhere in the 6 week update, where they have not paid the lease, and the 10 week update when they demanded a refund?

Out of sight, out of mind. I bet they are blowing smoke. Assuming they finally signed the contract (which you never updated after 6 week complaint update), you seem to have a solid contract. They don’t stand a chance.

Your mistakes -

#1 - any revision to price, expectations, etc. should be made in writing and signed.
#2 - Relying on the opinion of their vet. If horse has never had issues you should have requested the horse be returned immediately so your personal vet could give second opinion.
#3 - Allowing horse to be shown while “sore” and on drugs. (IF there is something wrong, that just made it 10x worse).
#4 - Allowing horse to leave your property without a signed lease agreement.

I’m assuming you a professional with a few horses in your barn since you offered a replacement. It just floors me that these simple things, especially #4 are not done. I hear about this over and over again. I’m an amateur. Even #4 seems rational to me.

This is from the first post:

• By now they’ve had the horse for 6 WEEKS without paying lease fee or sending back signed lease agreement. Finally get the both after telling them they are not showing anymore without it.

OP did have a signed contract.

[Princess_Sparkles]

Since this is a WWYD post, I will say that a LOT of what I would have done is too late for you to do now–but could be something you do in the future if you continue to lease.

First of all, if someone contacted me that a horse I leased out had been vetted, issues had been diagnosed, and was lame, I would be going out there to see the horse myself AND talking directly to the vet that examined the horse. Lease or no, you are still the owner and you are responsible ultimately for the well-being of this animal. There was no reason for you not to look into their claims from the beginning, and either have the horse looked at by a vet you know and trust OR have the horse shipped straight home to get to the bottom of it. The fact that they wanted to keep the horse and show him on Banamine is a huge red flag–either they are lying and were trying to negotiate down the lease fee, or they are the type of people who don’t give a crap about the horse and will do anything to win. Neither are the type that would have possession of one of my horses. IE, this should have been enough to end the lease and bring him home!

Secondly, the horse should NEVER have left the property without a signed contract and money changing hands. This is basic. I have been through this with boarding clients of mine and it is always a frustrating mess. Signed contract, money changes hands, PERIOD. A good contract should cover what happens in the event a horse goes lame/needs vet care during the lease, so that you have something to point to when they ask for their money back because the horse has gone lame. If this isn’t in the contract, the document you have is pretty crappy.

I don’t think that anything they have said is wrong with the horse is out of the question–as an older animal who has done a lot of showing, it may be that you as the owner simply missed that there were issues with this horse and he really did need everything they did (or said they did). Again, ask for all vet records, speak to the treating vet to make sure the horse really did have everything done that they said. As it is contentious at this point, they may tell the vet not to speak to you, which is too bad–you may have missed your chance to get medical information about your animal. In any event, I agree you need to vet this horse ASAP now that he is home.

Forget about getting any money for trailering the horse home. This has become a contentious situation and nickel and diming isn’t going to settle things down. I would recommend getting a contract lawyer with equine experience to review your lease contract right away. They will be able to note any deficiencies so you don’t have more problems in the future, and hopefully write you a better one (since it sounds to me like there are a lot of gray areas you haven’t covered in the lease).

Guessing as to their success in court is impossible. In Canada, where I live, this would be a small claims court dispute–anything 25K and under is small claims here. I can tell you that small claims REALLY wants people to compromise and settle, so if you don’t have an ironclad contract covering these issues, a judge is going to expect you to meet them in the middle. But that is my experience in small claims in Canada when I was a law student (haven’t gone to small claims in several years now) so I can’t say what your experience would be.

But seriously, get a contract lawyer to draft you a better agreement. It is worth the money.