Menu

Stay in Touch
Sign up for ENews
Subscribe Now

Unlimited access >

Menu

Natural horsemanship forum?

Off Course
#21

Switching methods depends on so many things. I was very reluctant to do “groundwork” sessions with the err cowboy type trainer who was at the barn, seen too many horses confused by Parelli type people. I nearly missed out on some of the most useful information and training that I’ve had.

So, the natural horse intuitive methods unemployed by him, the horse would adapt easily.

Horses that have done the 7 games often need a therapist, and personally I wouldn’t touch one with a 12’ carrot stick.

Others mileage may vary.

7 Likes
#22

Oh christ. No george

#23

I do groundwork with green horses but always with the idea in mind of what they will eventually do under saddle. It’s just a continuum. But you can’t teach a horse anything until you have tact, clarity, and patience. The ground work clinicians run into trouble when they try to codify training techniques for beginners that lack these basics and cannot actually communicate with the horse.

3 Likes
#24

I really like Warrick Schiller. He seems very open minded and has some good stuff. I’m not a follower but occasionally will watch his YouTube clips and use things here and there.

I like some of Buck Brannaman’s techniques. But when I saw him in person at a clinic, I wasn’t nearly as impressed. He nearly caused a horse to flip over (we were sitting behind the fence and actually got up because we were concerned the horse might come over the fence.) He’s definitely got some good techniques but that day seemed like there was a temper and ego. Maybe just a bad day? I’ll still use some things but I’m not a devoted follower and would not do a clinic with him.

I just use what I like and leave the rest. That goes with most trainers though, regardless if discipline.

6 Likes
#25

A sane rider always has concern for the health, safety, and welfare of their horse. No horse, no rider.

As to your statement about bopping horses on the head, one of the godfathers of “natural horsemanship” once, in a video with Larry Mahan, whacked a horse under the jaw with his cane a half dozen times and they were NOT “love taps.” Using physical corrections for undesired equine behavior is quite “natural” from the point of view of ensuring safe equine behavior.

At the end of the day “natural horsemanship” is an oxymoron as there is NOTHING natural about a horse (a prey animal) allowing a member of the World’s Most Successful Predator Species climbing on its back. Or removing it arbitrarily (from the horse’s point of view) from its herd mates. Or having all the protective hair stripped off it in the winter and then being wrapped in a canvas bag. Or spending it’s days in 12’ x 12’ cell with only period, short trips to the “exercise yard.”

What is natural, for the purveyors of NH, is the ability to separate the human from the contents of their wallet, claiming all the time it’s all for the good of the horse.

Good horsemanship is good sense. Using the natural tendencies of the horse to allow a human to accomplish some goal can be abusive but need not be so.

Not all labels are honest descriptions of reality.

G.

9 Likes
#26

I love Warwick Schiller, especially his newer stuff. I also really love all of Mark Rashid’s books.

I’m not crazy about the rest of the NH guys though. I think just because something “works”, doesn’t make it the best way to train. And in my experience NH does work most of the time. I just think natural horsemanship principles aren’t empathetic to the horse. I think good trainers focus on why the horse is behaving a certain way whereas with natural horsemanship, you’re just focusing on the behavior itself and not the underlying cause.

My beef with natural horsemanship PEOPLE is how they always think natural horsemanship is the only right way to do things. Notice how when OP started getting some NH criticism she ran for the hills? They won’t even entertain any criticism. Clinton Anderson blocks his comments on YouTube for a reason. Or they just assume that if you don’t agree with NH, that means you just don’t know any better. And another thing, to them, everything your horse does that isn’t perfect must be because they’re just “disrespectful.” I’m sorry. No. We’re not entitled to horses respect just because we have two legs and a heartbeat.

6 Likes
#27

I just subscribed to Warrick Schiller’s website videos as a gift to myself during this time. I figure I’d like it better than Netflix.
I really like his methods, and his philosophy. His focus on letting the horse make choices and lack of judgement is something I like.
He has one video on YouTube about what we can learn from 10 year old girls is the one that initially caught my eye.

All that said I don’t know what Natural Horsemanship really is. There are people out there who are naturally gifted/talented working with horses.
Theres one young woman who can do amazing stuff with horses, but I consider her “dangerous” because the things she does are things only a really good horse body reader can do, An idiot trying to what she does could get seriously hurt.
Im not dinging her, just thinking wow, if I tried that I’d be toast.

4 Likes
#28

The NH guys I like are really just about building trust and letting the horse learn by rewarding good choices and correcting bad choices. In that regard, it’s not so different from any other training paradigm. Maybe more focused on groundwork, but to each his own.

BTW, is there a title to replace NH that won’t piss everyone off? It’s like the Voldemort of equestrian disciplines…we shall not speak its name!

6 Likes
#29

A rose by any other name?

Names can be fair descriptions and out and out fraud. Ignore the name look at the substance.l

Trust comes from honest handling and work. There are many roads to this Rome but without honesty and trust they all lead somewhere else. Some of the trainer names mentioned are OK; some are not. ANY ONE NAME that demands exclusivity of practice and the purchase of goods and services to accomplish the goals claimed should be considered VERY SUSPECT.

The essence of training anything (person, horse, dog, whatever) is to understand how that animal learns and then make the good behavior you seek easy and undesirable behavior hard. Of course what YOU think is good and what the horse thinks is good can be two VERY different things. IMO this is the Achilles Heel of most of the methods that are claimed to be “natural.” They don’t consider that point of view.

G.

5 Likes
#30

No, I don’t think there is, in part, I think, because lots of people don’t view it as a “discipline.” It’s really more of a marketing scheme.

The best horse trainer I know (not people trainer, horse trainer) would laugh if you called what he does “natural horsemanship.” Yes, if you talk to him about training horses, he will mention the philosophies of the Dorrance brothers and Ray Hunt, but his horse background is rodeo and reining. I think there are lots of people out there who believe in and use the philosophies first publicized by these guys who we now think of as the fathers of natural horsemanship but would never classify themselves as part of the natural horsemanship movement.

That’s why I think it makes a lot more sense to talk about training philosophies of individuals without trying to put a label on it.

5 Likes
#31

My new horse when I first brought him home had atrocious ground manners, constantly crowding, mouthing, trying to eat grass while leading, etc. The usual bad behaviors. I start every session with ground work; how to lead, stay with me, back when asked, turn towards or away from me, ground tying and on and on. Our relationship has changed for the better, he has more trust in me and my decisions, and our ridden work has gotten better and better. He’s trying more and has a much better work ethic. I believe, by starting with the ground work, and it doesn’t have to be a long session, tunes him in and connects with me rather than just tossing on the saddle and riding.

I think I’ll check into Warwick Schiller, I’ve heard lots of good things about him, mainly on here. So thanks!

1 Like
#32

Just 101 posts and already posting something mean to someone even newer. I don’t think you need to do that. COTH doesn’t need that meanness.

OP, I’m open to your discussion. I’ve ridden for 45 years, with pro help, with lots of competing in lots of English disciplines, bred and raised one for myself, yada, yada. I have posted here for a long time. You can take a look at my posts to see if I’m someone worth listening to.

I also grew up in California where some of the best horsemen rode Western. I recently did a stint in Oregon where I had a chance to see Brannaman do some clinics and took some lessons from some of his long-time students. Now I live in South Carolina and got a ton of help with my hot, untrusting dressage mare from a small-time, but good clinician in NC who helped me teach this mare that she could push cattle. That and some ideas he gave me about how I can ride her have both improved her trust in me and made an appreciable difference in her rideability inside the ring (where her job is) and out.

A few years prior, when this mare was green, she was reactive enough (as I need her to be for her job)I was taught to get her very, very broke on the ground. IMO, the more they’d like to “run first and ask questions later” (as my mare is), the greater the gift of being taught precision and focus on the ground. Let that sink in for a minute. And then, know tIn all of my time in English world, I never ran across anyone who put that much focus on ground work or had a whole lot to say about how that would help me under saddle.

When this mare had to hand walk after an injury, her being as broke on the ground as we’d want a horse to be under saddle helped me keep her safe. Some of the questions I read here on COTH about badly-behaved horses on the ground causing real problems or their behavior stumping people or making lay-up risky makes me appreciate what the natural horsemanship/bridle horse guys had to offer. And I used to be the girl that knew all about stud chains and how to get things done with those, as the need arose. I didn’t have a “boys will be boys” attitude about rudeness on the ground, exactly, but I also didn’t realize how much better a horse could be. And I really didn’t appreciate how much that “being broke on the ground” helped riders and handlers when the chips were down and you really, really needed the horse to take direction. While my mare was rehabbing and on very strict orders about what she could do, my asking her to do small but exact things with her feet kept her entertained and enjoying having a job and my attention. Truly, the stuff I had learned to do with a horse on the ground contributed to her successful rehab. And today, her being so broke on the ground insures that anyone can handle her safely and peaceably so that they never have to put on a chain or get mad at her.

That said, I think groundwork is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Other than just a bit of help I got with figuring out how to make my mare more confident, I don’t think I have done enough riding with a good natural horsemanship guy to have his tools “eclipse” the set I have gained via riding (and riding English) for so long. But! I want to buy and make up my own bridle horse before I die. I’m pretty sure that when I put that horse in a hackamore, I’ll get learn some hard truths about just how well I do or don’t ride from my body. I am looking forward to learning to make up a horse in a totally new discipline, but continuing to develop my underlying horsemanship as part of that process.**

I’m not here to promote any natural horsemanship guy here, though I’ll tell you who I have gotten help from or watched give a clinic. I’m just telling you about my own experience. I’m not a big consumer of video. I personally believe there is a limit to what one can get by watching other people work with horses. And, ironically, the more you have taken some lessons where you have to actually figure out how to do with your body and read your horse’s body with the help of the pro, the more you can get from those video tapes.

** There are some things about the way Western World wants horse to relate to the bit, and the “raw material” of a young horse these American riders start with versus what we have and want for the horse in English world. For this reason, I don’t think it’s possible (for me, at least) to have one horse that can be a dressage horse half the time and a bridle horse the other half. Maybe when I learn more, I will figure that out. But I don’t know it yet, so I can’t put a horse into that potential confusion.

I hope folks can apply a bit of “take what you like and leave the rest” in this thread and about natural horsemanship. It might improve your horse’s life.

6 Likes
#33

We are trying to work with a horse that was drilled with CA’s method over the 2ish years that the previous owner had him. He’s a mess. Between his brief time at a cowboy trainer, being in the hands of a strict CA follower, and the mystery past before she had him, we have our work cut out for us. The horse is petrified of most things. You can tell he wants human contact but also has a strong distrust to most of it. Whatever was done with him before was more than likely forced onto him via exhaustion…if he doesn’t like it, run him more until he’s too tired to care. He never learned to actually process what was happening. You can’t walk up to him with a saddle pad, or anything that looks like fabric. You can’t bridle him. He is incredibly head shy. I will say that he very sensitive to round pen work and body language in the round pen…they definitely nailed that stuff in…but that’s it. You can make him trot in circles and he has good lead manners once you can get a halter on him, but otherwise he’s a mess. Not sure if it was the ‘cowboy trainer’ or the overwhelming CA stuff that did him in.

So, in this experience, it’s been very difficult. I wouldn’t say confusing for the horse…more for us, maybe? haha…it takes a couple outings to understand what cues they taught him. Over time, I’m sure those will slightly adjust. But, the rest of the difficulty totally lies within the damage control area. And there is a lot of damage.

2 Likes
#34

What is NH? A marketing gimmick like gaited saddles.

Terrible NH people:
Clinton Anderson
Pat Parelli

Glorified Cowboy:
Craig Cameron

Really Good “NH” Trainers but No One is a God and in No Particular Order
Buck Brannaman
Ray Hunt (RIP)
Tom Dorrance (RIP)
Chris Cox

(I witnessed Ray Hunt badger a sour barrel horse into whiplashing his owner unconscious on a gravel parking area, after he badgered him into backing into and kicking a huge dent in a horse trailer). @alabama was there, too. It was ugly and unnecessary IMO

My current ‘NH’ trainer of interest:He’s gotten the 'they are all individuals, I should pay really, really close attention" point. I didn’t get that for ages and still can push for too much too fast myself.
Warrick Schiller

#35

as MVP said, it depends on the damage done. I was offered a beautiful, grey, well put together mare who had been so poorly Parelli’d that she would quite literally just walk through a human, she had no respect for seemingly even any awareness of body language, respect for a leadrope or a rope twirling at her shoulder to back her off- she was fearless and respectless and clueless. Once you got on she was ok, but she was a total waste of a horse on the ground. If you did smack her in the shoulder with a leadrope end, she was just as likely to jump into you as away from you.she wasn’t mad or upset, just oblivious. I have my horses at home and I thought she would hurt DH before I could get her right, so I passed.

#36

I like Warwick Schiller. I have gotten a lot of good tools in my toolbox thanks to him. But I also only take what I like, and leave what I don’t. Use what works with the horse in front of me, instead of fanatically insisting that I ONLY use methods I have seen him use. I do like how open minded he is as a trainer, as well. That’s how you learn. Even though I have trained for years, I am always looking for new tools for my toolbox. I look at the actual substance of what the lesson is actually teaching the horse (and if the horse seems to understand/respond to that instruction), and decide if it is something I can use.

Every horse is an individual. Something that may work for one horse, may not work for another. So I keep my mind open, and pull from my toolbox what I need to work with the horse in front of me, on that particular day.

I will say I have worked with quite a few messed up mentally Parelli-trained horses. I prefer not to work with horses who have been Parelli-trained, unless it was performed by a REAL professional. A lot of amateurs can mess up a good horse using his methods. That’s why I don’t think it’s a good training program. Your average person has to be able to do it successfully and you can’t learn feel and timing and body language by reading a book or watching a DVD.

4 Likes
#37

Just because I’m being critical doesn’t mean I’m being mean. OP clearly didn’t want to have the NH discussion. I was all for it and I have discussed NH in this thread. It sounds like OP just wanted an NH fan club. In my experience on COTH (long time lurker but new account) people come here because we want honest views and different experiences because that’s a lot more educational than a fan club. If you read my posts earlier you’d see that one of my beefs with the NH crowd is how if you’re not a devout follower they don’t want to hear any of it. You either follow NH or you’re an idiot. The irony of OP wanting out of this thread the second the conversation got going proves my point exactly. Nobody here was mean. Nobody called her names. A lot of people came up with honest and fair criticism which of course just doesn’t fly in the NH world. That’s my whole issue. That’s not mean it’s pretty fair if you ask me.

9 Likes
#38

Ray Hunt was not very good, at least the first years he was not.
He was a personal friend of a local trainer and came here to give two day clinics, part of them starting colts.
One colt that was already quiet and halter broke he messed him up so bad, he never did get him ridden.
He did say he would need more time, but he would not have if he had not pushed him up front so bad the colt became wild.
Not sure Ray even knew about leads, the way he gave the afternoon clinic to a set of riders.
One fellow asked Ray help getting his horse to take a lead and Ray’s answers were nonsensical.
What that horse needed, the rider should have been told, is to get the horse’s feet trimmed right, he had awfully long, flared and breaking off platter feet.
One cowboy on a filly with a hackamore, that could not get her to back, Ray told him to take a hold and ran at the filly, long arms windmilling, that sold out.
After a few times of that, the filly by then badly spooked, almost dumping her rider in her spooks, would not let Ray within half of the arena, Ray said she just needed more basic work, not explaining what that meant.

Now, maybe in his later years he was better, but for what I heard, people in his colt starting clinics were bucked off and injured rather frequently, as he would get them to saddle the colts and then have a melee in the arena with all running around without control.

I wondered those that learned from him and sing his praise, what all they know themselves.

3 Likes
#39

Okay, but OP literally said s/he was new to NH and asked for a place to share “successes, challenges, ideas, resources, etc.”. I don’t see why that warrants criticism. I personally like to apply the “THINK” model to feedback (is it True, is it Helpful, is it Inspiring, is it Necessary, is it Kind). My two cents.

8 Likes
#40

As others have said, Warwick Schiller has a good FB group, in which both he and his wife Robyn are very involved. It’s a good supportive group and I bet you’d like it.
I gave myself a monthly subscription to his website for Christmas and I’m very glad I did. Especially now that I’m farm-bound and have tons of time to try new stuff.

Get your Digital Subscription here - only $21.95 / year

Subscribe here
See gift options

Sign up to our monthly newsletter!

By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.

Copyright © 2023 The Chronicle of the Horse