Natural horsemanship forum?

[Texel]

@Kaspercat

I would love to know how easy or difficult it is for a horse to switch training methods if anyone has experience of this?

I saw an ad for a lovely Parelli trained youngster once and didn’t view because I’m BHS trained (so traditional British style, although it has become a more relaxed version over the years) and I thought that switching method might be confusing for the horse.

The biggest sticking point I’ve found IME is that it’s very, very hard to retrain them to lunge like how you’re probably used to.

[AndyTheCornbread]

@Equkelly

I’m happy so many people are bringing up Warwick Schiller because he really is great. But he’s not a natural horsemanship trainer. He may ride western and wear a cowboy hat and have an Australian accent but he’s said himself he doesn’t consider himself to be a natural horsemanship trainer. If you’ve studied NH and you’ve studied Warwick’s stuff, especially his new stuff, they are very VERY different approaches. There many be some overlap in certain techniques but if you’re going by the actual definition of “natural horsemanship”, the he doesn’t fit the bill. Which for the record, is a good thing IMO

Same with Mark Rashid. He has a chapter in one of his books… I think “Horses never Lie” where he talks about natural horsemanship and why he doesn’t agree with that mindset. He tells a story about watching a natural horsemanship clinic when he was younger and why he was not impressed with the clinician.

I’m learning a lot by reading these comments about people’s perceptions of what NH actually is.

Yes, I would definitely agree with this. Same with some of the others I mentioned. They are just good horsemen and good trainers, and I definitely wouldn’t call them NH practitioners although you might see a thing here and there where a method overlaps.

Earlier when I was talking about trainers whose ideas I just tune out aren’t NH trainers either. They tend to be some weird blend of new age bitless, shoeless proponents that seem to have never dealt with a true working horse environment in their entire lives. I usually run into them at clinics or if I am using the local arena I meet a few there from time to time. Poker rides I have to deal with the barefoot weirdness and they are generally walking / limping their horses back to the trail head in spite of us having put “horses must be shod” in the flyer. I’m not opposed to bitless riding either, I do it on several of my horses and I leave my horses unshod through winter, what I have a problem with is the rabid fanatics who can’t see every horse is different and there are some areas of the country like where I live where having shoes is a must if you plan to ride more than a mile or two. I guess it’s true what they say that when the only tool you know is a hammer, every problem gets treated as a nail.

as far as good women trainers go, what about Julie Goodnight? I know nothing about her but her name pops up a lot when women trainers are talked about.

The lady I really enjoyed her thoughts on equation was Sally Swift.

[SuzieQNutter]

@TMares

as MVP said, it depends on the damage done. I was offered a beautiful, grey, well put together mare who had been so poorly Parelli’d that she would quite literally just walk through a human, she had no respect for seemingly even any awareness of body language, respect for a leadrope or a rope twirling at her shoulder to back her off- she was fearless and respectless and clueless. Once you got on she was ok, but she was a total waste of a horse on the ground. If you did smack her in the shoulder with a leadrope end, she was just as likely to jump into you as away from you.she wasn’t mad or upset, just oblivious. I have my horses at home and I thought she would hurt DH before I could get her right, so I passed.

This is where NH has its downfall. I would say 90% of horses go away from pressure naturally. There are those horses that naturally go into pressure, so a one fits all horse training technique does not work.

It sounds like your grey is like this. So if not wanting to get on a float. A tap with the whip on the chest will have the horse jumping into the float rather than away from it.

So just as the NH has been detrimental, you must realise that this horse is not a waste of space on the ground, but train this horse as one that goes into pressure instead of away from it. It may be more than 10% as I had 2 here at the same time that did that. You wouldn’t know that if you came, as they were retrained by me, after failing with previous owners, who did not think they were worth keeping. They then will go away from pressure.

[Equkelly]

@AndyTheCornbread

I guess it’s true what they say that when the only tool you know is a hammer, every problem gets treated as a nail.

as far as good women trainers go, what about Julie Goodnight? I know nothing about her but her name pops up a lot when women trainers are talked about.

The lady I really enjoyed her thoughts on equation was Sally Swift.

To your point about barefoot/ bitless gurus- YES. If I didn’t know any better I’d say I wrote it myself. I’ve always said “barefoot hoof farriers” are just farriers that aren’t skilled enough to do any actual corrective work and think there super special trimming is a cure all for 100% of any issue ever. Nope. I mean if your horse can go barefoot, great save your money on shoes but not every horse in every situation can do that. Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Same with bitless riding. If you want to ride bitless good for you but bitless doesn’t automatically equal softness. I think it’s great to be able to do but if your making up for it in muscle, you’re missing the point.

As far as Julie goes, I mean I’m not impressed. I think she’s your typical natural horsemanship trainer. I wouldn’t say she’s a Clinton Anderson but she is what she is. I just don’t agree. I only know what I’ve seen of her on rfdtv so take it with a grain of salt, I have not been to any of her clinics, even though I probably should check one out since she’s in my state. She’s all about getting the horses respect and attention and not much about the “why” a certain behavior is occurring. For the record, I think most beginners would do well with a little natural horsemanship 101. I think especially if you have a really pushy horse that’s walking all over you someone like JG would be great to listen to.

As for Sally Swift, I’m a fan. I read “Centered Riding” and I firmly believe it should be on every equestrians bookshelf.

[Equibrit]

@DawgLady

I see I’ve started something unintentionally. If others would like to continue discussing, that is fine. But I am going to step away from this post. It’s a lonely time and I was hoping to find a community to share my interest, that is all.

Never ask a question if you don’t know the answer :winkgrin:

[TMares]

@SuzieQNutter

This is where NH has its downfall. I would say 90% of horses go away from pressure naturally. There are those horses that naturally go into pressure, so a one fits all horse training technique does not work.

It sounds like your grey is like this. So if not wanting to get on a float. A tap with the whip on the chest will have the horse jumping into the float rather than away from it.

So just as the NH has been detrimental, you must realise that this horse is not a waste of space on the ground, but train this horse as one that goes into pressure instead of away from it. It may be more than 10% as I had 2 here at the same time that did that. You wouldn’t know that if you came, as they were retrained by me, after failing with previous owners, who did not think they were worth keeping. They then will go away from pressure.

My horses are at home. My DH is not a skilled horseman. She would have hurt him before I could have retrained her because he’s never been around spoiled horses, I’ve worked hard to keep him safe because he doesn’t know any better. I know who trained this particular mare and I know she TAUGHT this mare very poorly so the mare was doing what she had been so poorly taught to do- wallow all over her person.

She was a waste of a horse on the ground TO ME because I am confident she would have hurt my husband BEFORE I could fix her. Re-read what I posted and you will see I stated exactly that the first time.

[SuzieQNutter]

@TMares

My horses are at home. My DH is not a skilled horseman. She would have hurt him before I could have retrained her because he’s never been around spoiled horses, I’ve worked hard to keep him safe because he doesn’t know any better. I know who trained this particular mare and I know she TAUGHT this mare very poorly so the mare was doing what she had been so poorly taught to do- wallow all over her person.

She was a waste of a horse on the ground TO ME because I am confident she would have hurt my husband BEFORE I could fix her. Re-read what I posted and you will see I stated exactly that the first time.

What I was saying is that she may be worse because of her natural inclination as well as the bad reasoning she was given.

Yes my hubby has only interacted with horses trained by me. When Dodge goes, as he is getting very old, it will be time for him to bring on a horse on his own. I have stepped away from him riding the horses at the moment as he is ready for that. I have no idea how the next step will go but I do know I will be looking for a very ameanable horse that is already good on the ground and quiet under saddle. I hear you.

[RainWeasley]

I’ve always thought of real NH to be communicating with the horse at a level they understand. Not the fad, cult like stuff. Whether they classify themselves as NH or not (which, to be fair, most won’t simply because of the stigma attached to the term now), any trainer that does training from the ground up with minimal tools purely to build up the confidence of the horse in itself and its handler, through understanding of how the horse learns and thinks and reacts, in a way that is as easy as possible for the horse to understand, is true NH. A really good NH trainer makes a horse that can then go on to “college” in whatever discipline, western or english. And a lot of good trainers in specific disciplines incorporate NH philosophy into their training, even if they don’t realize it.

Real NH isn’t about dominance or forcing respect. It’s not about learned helplessness. And it’s not about making your horse into your best friend. It’s using what we know and learn from a horse’s natural behavior to create confident partners and solid citizens. That’s why it’s called “natural” horsemanship, it’s as natural as you can get, taken from equine behavior.

[Guilherme]

@RainWeasley

I’ve always thought of real NH to be communicating with the horse at a level they understand. Not the fad, cult like stuff. Whether they classify themselves as NH or not (which, to be fair, most won’t simply because of the stigma attached to the term now), any trainer that does training from the ground up with minimal tools purely to build up the confidence of the horse in itself and its handler, through understanding of how the horse learns and thinks and reacts, in a way that is as easy as possible for the horse to understand, is true NH. A really good NH trainer makes a horse that can then go on to “college” in whatever discipline, western or english. And a lot of good trainers in specific disciplines incorporate NH philosophy into their training, even if they don’t realize it.

The above is more right than wrong. But the whole concept of NH is an oxymoron for reasons I’ve stated, above. The competent trainer works with the horse in front of them, not the horse in front of somebody else or in their book or video or any other place. Nobody would put the NH label on Vladimir Littauer yet that is just what he does. So does Alois Podhahsky. And Guy Henry. And countless sergeants of the U.S. and other Cavalries. These folks (and others like them) did write book and do videos but they also always cautioned that you work with the horse you have, not the horse somebody else has.

Real NH isn’t about dominance or forcing respect. It’s not about learned helplessness. And it’s not about making your horse into your best friend. It’s using what we know and learn from a horse’s natural behavior to create confident partners and solid citizens. That’s why it’s called “natural” horsemanship, it’s as natural as you can get, taken from equine behavior.

ALL horsemanship is about dominance. The horse lives in pyramidal world. That is the NATURAL state of the world of the horse. There are lateral relationships in that world but even there true “equality” is fleeting, at best. This does NOT mean beating an animal into submission. It DOES mean letting the horse know that YOU, the human, are in charge and will determine the “what” and much of the “how” in any given circumstance. Smart horsemen know you start small and work up to big. Ground work is where the foundation for this relationship is built. The horse learns that they MUST do as they are directed but that they won’t be directed to do anything that will injure or harm them. That the human, as the Great Alpha, will ensure their protection. This is Step One. Once this is done the training moves on. But it doesn’t move on UNTIL this is done.

This is a time consuming process. The greatest abomination in the American horse world today is the “Road to the Horse” idiocy where there is RACE to see who can get a horse under saddle first. No real horseman/women would EVER do such a thing. Yet they sell a lot of tickets to this and the crowd cheers. Personally, I can’t think of anything more depressing.

The upshot of this is the cruel bastards who win (or even participate) flog their “victory” and sell “how to” materials to the general public. So the idea of “shortcut” becomes the norm. And that largely explains the number of truly ill behaved horses one sees today.

Natural Horsemanship (the capitalized version) remains an oxymoron. The other natural horsemanship (no caps and as first described by Xenophon circa 350 B.C) is the Gold Standard. All that has come since builds on his foundation (and he wasn’t actually the first; he references Kirkuli the Hittite as his inspiration). So retire Parelli, Roberts, and all their ilk to the dustbin of history. You’ll be glad you did and so will your horse.

G.

[anon6003733]

del

[NoSuchPerson]

@RainWeasley Sure. But you’ve ended up where the OP specifically said she didn’t want to go, which is saying that good Natural Horsemanship is just good horsemanship.

IMO, the term “natural horsemanship” has become useless as anything other than a marketing tool.

[SuzieQNutter]

I think rainweasely has it backwards with this statement:-

And a lot of good trainers in specific disciplines incorporate NH philosophy into their training, even if they don’t realize it.

It should read that a lot of good trainers in specific disciplines use philosophy that NH has adopted as theirs.

[candyappy]

@Equkelly

I don’t think that’s what NH is. Nothing about it seems “warm and fuzzy” to me. I actually think it’s quite harsh and abrasive. That’s why I think the name sucks so much. People just assume because something is “natural” that it’s automatically better. Kind of like people who buy a ton of junk food just because it says “organic” on it. Like just because your Oreos say “organic” doesn’t make it healthy.

Natural horsemanship is about using the horse’s natural instincts to communicate with them like how horses communicate with each other. But horses don’t communicate with each other in a warm and fuzzy way. They pin their ears, the kick each other, they bite each other, they chase each other. They communicate by applying pressure to get the less dominant horse to move away from it and when they don’t get the response they want they apply more pressure.

This is why it’s not my favorite training method. I want my horse to want to do what I ask because they also want that, not because if they don’t there’s going to be all this pressure and kicking and “moving their feet.” The relationship I have with my horse I want to be built off a mutual respect and trust. But with natural horsemanship the relationship you seek is similar to the relationship your horse has with a bossier and more dominant horse. Will that relationship get you what you want? Probably, I’m just not interested in that sort of partnership with my horse.

In my experience it all depends on who’s methods/ training advice you use.

That is why I always liked John Lyons. So much of the work on the ground is based on body language and the so called pressure you use( like in round penning) is not threatening but more like helping the horse choose the right choice and all you use , basically is yourself.

All horse training is based on the horse figuring out what your asking. Consistency, repetition and pressure & release are the way they learn and depending on the handler it can be either harsh, gentle or in-between. All depends on who is doing the training and that applies to any method NH or others.

[moonlitoaksranch]

What do you guys think of this NH trainer? I have his horsemanship book on my shelf.

Here are a few quotes:

"To quote a dictum of Simon, what a horse does under compulsion he does blindly, and his performance is no more beautiful than would be that of a ballet-dancer taught by whip and goad. The performances of horse or man so treated would seem to be displays of clumsy gestures rather than of grace and beauty.

But the instant he raises his neck in answer to the pull, give him the bit at once; and so throughout, as we never cease repeating, at every response to your wishes, whenever and wherever the animal performs his service well, (9) reward and humour him."

The author is Xenophon (431 BC - 354 BC). The translation from ancient Greek is slightly awkward, but the attitude is clear enough. I laugh when I hear modern types claim they invented NH.