'Natural Remedies' - Why are these so popular?

[S1969]

@merrygoround

Not just horse people. Read labels on your own food. Gluten free- Non GMO-Sugarless-Fat free., etc. etc.

I have no complaints about labeling the dietary breakdown of food, but the rest is nonsense unless you have a pertinent ailment.

Well, I disagree with this in part. I might choose to buy non-GMO foods because I don’t want to support companies that use GMO ingredients. I also might buy gluten free because even though I don’t have a pertinent ailment, gluten isn’t an ingredient that is good for you. Reducing gluten consumption is likely to be good for you regardless of whether you have celiac.

That said, I do believe that the labels are often for marketing so-called “healthier” foods - especially “low fat” or “cholesterol free”. Gluten free labeling is really important if you are or might serve someone that is celiac so I think it’s great.

[Kemosabe]

Before there was western medicine, there was Traditional Chinese Medicine and Ayurveda. Hippocrates didn’t waltz over to his nearest pharmacy to pick up meds for the treatment of specific diseases he wrote about in his books. Many of our modern medicines are compounds synthesized from plants and foods.

A better descriptor of “alternative” might be “traditional”. In many teaching hospitals like the University of Virginia alternatives are now called “complementary medicines”. In this way they are used as supportive medicine for western pharmacological therapy.

And “alternatives” that twenty years ago were viewed with suspicion and even derision: acupuncture, chiropractics, massage are now mainstream accepted supportive therapies.

Are there scammers in the supplement industry, yes. That’s why the NASC was formed, to police supplement companies in the animal supplement industry by enforcing good manufacturing practices, restricting label and marketing claims, and testing products for the labeled ingredients.

Whether its a pharmaceutical or a plant, it is up to the individual to seek out more information. Every drug has side effects, and every plant has possible drug-interactions and precautions.

[JB]

@S1969

Well, I disagree with this in part. I might choose to buy non-GMO foods because I don’t want to support companies that use GMO ingredients. I also might buy gluten free because even though I don’t have a pertinent ailment, gluten isn’t an ingredient that is good for you. Reducing gluten consumption is likely to be good for you regardless of whether you have celiac.

That said, I do believe that the labels are often for marketing so-called “healthier” foods - especially “low fat” or “cholesterol free”. Gluten free labeling is really important if you are or might serve someone that is celiac so I think it’s great.

The problem I think she’s referring to is non-GMO grapes, gluten-free peaches, non-GMO labeling for things for which there are no GMO options, At least, that’s how I interpreted it

Gluten is not inherently bad for us. Over-consumption is, which is at least part of what has led to this growing problem of Celiac and true gluten sensitivity. And even then, a lot of people who claim they are gluten sensitive, are actually just allergic to a protein in wheat, not the gluten itself. There are growing health issues because of so many non-Celiac people blankedly avoiding anything containing gluten because marketing HAS made it into the bad guy. That just points back to people choosing to listen to whomever is yelling the loudest, instead of doing some actual research.

[alibi_18]

@JB

it’s irresponsible, IMHO, to not attempt to educate the person on they why don’t need all those supplements (…)

Well, last times I tried to educate people, they complained to my boss (when I worked at a tack shop) and wrote bad reviews on the internet because I suggested them to seek help from a vet.

Ok, once I really insisted politely like +10 times in the half hour the client was there… As per client her horse had temperature, swollen back legs and a bleeding puncture in front foot sole -
She wanted poultice, bandages and bute. (Puncture wound was treated with alcool only for the past 3 days…)
Her BO had told her we would sell her bute… Quebec has laws against medication sold by anyone but vets… So client and BO were clueless.
That client came back a month or so later to buy joint supplement and told me her horse was just fine… :rolleyes: Yeah, I’m sure he’s just fine limping around…

Another one came in crying because the vet had killed her horse! Neighbourg told her the vet should have tubed the horse with mineral oil and that would have cured the colic… So customer was here to buy a big oral seringe and a gallon of oil.
Well, after talking with her some more, we learned that the horse had been down in the pasture for some time and they had been unable to make it stand…
I tried to explain to the customer that; considering the horse was down, unable to get up, the vet had unfortunately no choice but to euthanized… that tubing required special skills and that shooting oil with an oral seringe would do squat to prevent, and even less cure a colic for her other horses…
Neighbourg was right, I was wrong, vet should be somehow sued, and a complaint appeared again on the internet about stupid tack shop workers… :rolleyes:

You just can’t fix stupid when they don’t want to live in the same reality as you.

[S1969]

@JB

The problem I think she’s referring to is non-GMO grapes, gluten-free peaches, non-GMO labeling for things for which there are no GMO options, At least, that’s how I interpreted it

Gluten is not inherently bad for us. Over-consumption is, which is at least part of what has led to this growing problem of Celiac and true gluten sensitivity. And even then, a lot of people who claim they are gluten sensitive, are actually just allergic to a protein in wheat, not the gluten itself. There are growing health issues because of so many non-Celiac people blankedly avoiding anything containing gluten because marketing HAS made it into the bad guy. That just points back to people choosing to listen to whomever is yelling the loudest, instead of doing some actual research.

What are the growing health issues?

Seriously, I’ve never heard this and I read a lot about food.

Gluten is not inherently good for you, either. So avoiding it is not a bad decision. I do, and I also avoid sugar. Not because I have any inherent sugar problem either, but I know that a diet too high in gluten or sugar is inherently bad.

ETA: we may just be talking about different issues here. I don’t buy many “gluten free” foods that normally have gluten (e.g. cookies, pasta, etc.) I do try to avoid additional gluten for no good reason - in salad dressing, in mayonnaise or cold cuts, etc. Then again, I don’t tend to buy many premade items at all because I don’t want a lot of the crap that is in them.

[sophie]

@Kemosabe

Before there was western medicine, there was Traditional Chinese Medicine and Ayurveda. Hippocrates didn’t waltz over to his nearest pharmacy to pick up meds for the treatment of specific diseases he wrote about in his books. Many of our modern medicines are compounds synthesized from plants and foods.

A better descriptor of “alternative” might be “traditional”. In many teaching hospitals like the University of Virginia alternatives are now called “complementary medicines”. In this way they are used as supportive medicine for western pharmacological therapy.

And “alternatives” that twenty years ago were viewed with suspicion and even derision: acupuncture, chiropractics, massage are now mainstream accepted supportive therapies.

Are there scammers in the supplement industry, yes. That’s why the NASC was formed, to police supplement companies in the animal supplement industry by enforcing good manufacturing practices, restricting label and marketing claims, and testing products for the labeled ingredients.

Whether its a pharmaceutical or a plant, it is up to the individual to seek out more information. Every drug has side effects, and every plant has possible drug-interactions and precautions.

Of course. I don’t get why people dismiss “traditional” or “alternative” medicines as a whole when they have been used successfully for centuries. Aspirin, anyone? I try to find a happy medium between the two. The key is to educate oneself.

FWIW an old timer vet once told me to use ButeLess (it’s not a new “fad”, it’s been available for years) as means to keep a picky older horse sound, both because it comes in palatable pellets, it’s gentler on the stomach, and I found it did wonders for that horse.

[JB]

@S1969

What are the growing health issues?

Seriously, I’ve never heard this and I read a lot about food.

People who purposeful avoid gluten just because they heard it was bad for you, do it in an uneducated manner. Those who have to for health reasons at least (for the most part) get some education on what happens when they avoid all those foods.

They are too-often ending up with low fiber diets because they start avoiding all fiber-rich foods, and don’t replace that fiber with other sources, low folic acid because they’re avoiding vitamin-enriched foods and not taking, or not taking appropriate supplements or not getting it from other food sources. So from this perspective, it’s not the lack of gluten that’s the problem, it’s the lack of education on what avoiding those foods really means from a nutritional perspective. But given that it seems most people don’t know about nutrition anyway, they don’t know what they don’t know.

I’ve seen a couple of studies (all overseas IIRC) which hint at the possibility that totally avoiding gluten, without a medical need, has an adverse effect on the health of the microbiome. Some of this has to do with how a lot of gluten-free “grain” products are made, using tapioca, potato starch, rice flour, which don’t have a lot of the nutrients that grains have, aren’t fortified, and can be fairly high in sugar and starch. It’s like the fat-free craze which resulted in far too many people over-consuming carbs and sugar.

Gluten is not inherently good for you, either. So avoiding it is not a bad decision. I do, and I also avoid sugar. Not because I have any inherent sugar problem either, but I know that a diet too high in gluten or sugar is inherently bad.

ETA: we may just be talking about different issues here. I don’t buy many “gluten free” foods that normally have gluten (e.g. cookies, pasta, etc.) I do try to avoid additional gluten for no good reason - in salad dressing, in mayonnaise or cold cuts, etc. Then again, I don’t tend to buy many premade items at all because I don’t want a lot of the crap that is in them.

Yes, the issue is that too many people eat not just way too many carbs, but way too many carbs from refined and highly processed grains, which are devoid of naturally occurring nutrients and fiber.

Just because a diet is high in gluten and is “bad” for you, doesn’t mean a diet that includes gluten is bad. There is some evidence that some level of gluten is healthy for the gut microbiome as well as helping boost the immune system or lower triglycerides No, those are not huge studies, or over long periods of time, but they do suggest that there are indeed health benefits of some level of gluten

The problem is when it’s excessive, and that may not even be about the gluten itself, but what comes along with things that contain gluten. Some whole grains in the diet are fine. Tons is not. Processed grains in foods that tend to be high in sugar and starch is not healthy when consumed in excess. Gluten gets the blame far too often

[JB]

COTH is having issues and won’t let me edit, but I needed to edit the first line
“People who purposeful avoid gluten just because they heard it was bad for you, do it in an uneducated manner.”

To
“People who purposeful avoid gluten just because they heard it was bad for you, tend to do it in an uneducated manner.”

[Guilherme]

Interesting research on gluten sensitivity:

https://www.drperlmutter.com/gluten-sensitivity-challenged-new-study/

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-11-fructan-gluten-people-stomachs.html

G.

[JB]

Yes, gluten often get blamed because it’s the most “obvious” common thing. But not only do FODMAPs produce issues, so do some proteins that come along with a grain, such as a specifically identified wheat protein that is not the gluten protein.

Interesting about the possible fructan link, I had not run across that!

[kiwichick]

I think regarding bute and natural alternatives of the likes, there is just a selection of the general public that are trying to do the best by the horses (albeit in an uneducated manner)
There was recently a FB thread about alternatives to long term bute, and the suggestions were all the usual suspects (willow, devils claw, turmeric, aloe vera and lethicin which id never heard of in this particular scenario.)

The side effects of some of these are worse than bute long term, and the others have no evidence whatsoever that they have any effect on pain management.

However people think natural = better, safer, kinder. unintentional ignorance I think plays a huge part.

[S1969]

@JB

People who purposeful avoid gluten just because they heard it was bad for you, do it in an uneducated manner. Those who have to for health reasons at least (for the most part) get some education on what happens when they avoid all those foods.

They are too-often ending up with low fiber diets because they start avoiding all fiber-rich foods, and don’t replace that fiber with other sources, low folic acid because they’re avoiding vitamin-enriched foods and not taking, or not taking appropriate supplements or not getting it from other food sources. So from this perspective, it’s not the lack of gluten that’s the problem, it’s the lack of education on what avoiding those foods really means from a nutritional perspective. But given that it seems most people don’t know about nutrition anyway, they don’t know what they don’t know.

I’ve seen a couple of studies (all overseas IIRC) which hint at the possibility that totally avoiding gluten, without a medical need, has an adverse effect on the health of the microbiome. Some of this has to do with how a lot of gluten-free “grain” products are made, using tapioca, potato starch, rice flour, which don’t have a lot of the nutrients that grains have, aren’t fortified, and can be fairly high in sugar and starch. It’s like the fat-free craze which resulted in far too many people over-consuming carbs and sugar.

Yes, the issue is that too many people eat not just way too many carbs, but way too many carbs from refined and highly processed grains, which are devoid of naturally occurring nutrients and fiber.

Just because a diet is high in gluten and is “bad” for you, doesn’t mean a diet that includes gluten is bad. There is some evidence that some level of gluten is healthy for the gut microbiome as well as helping boost the immune system or lower triglycerides No, those are not huge studies, or over long periods of time, but they do suggest that there are indeed health benefits of some level of gluten

The problem is when it’s excessive, and that may not even be about the gluten itself, but what comes along with things that contain gluten. Some whole grains in the diet are fine. Tons is not. Processed grains in foods that tend to be high in sugar and starch is not healthy when consumed in excess. Gluten gets the blame far too often

On my phone so sorry to quote your whole post.

Yes unfortunately too many Americans just eat very badly. Looking for the magic bullet and ignoring most known advice…reduce refined carbs, added sugar, excessive preservatives, etc. And eat whole foods…high in fiber, colored veggies, etc.

My best friend has MS so we.often talk about inflammatory foods…for her, sugar and gluten are killer. But we both already eat a generally low carb, high fiber, grass fed sort of diet. With exceptions of course…but our normal is probably not typical.

[4LeafCloverFarm]

I have a neighbor about a mile from me who swears by all the “alternative” supplements and all her horses are on some combination of 2 to 5 or more of them. I used to horse sit for her, feeding the 12 or so horses twice a day, some who got 4 supplement SmartPak cups + 2 or 3 other supplements out of tubs, canisters or whatever - yucca, cranberry powder, MSM, Garlic, Yeast and so on. I felt like a chemist.

I, on the other hand, tend to be a lot more skeptical. I have discussed the use of these types of supplements with my vet. While she generally sees no harm in trying them, and if no real results are evident, then stop using them, she is of the opinion that there are few (if any) studies on many of these supplements, little evidence of their efficacy, and the $$$ price tag on many is exorbitant. She feels, and I agree, that many (not all) are simply marketed and puffed up as “cure-alls” for everything from arthritis to mood stabilizers. Like the human natural supplement movement, lots of companies are cashing in big time on the hopes of humans and animals alike.

I do agree that for horses that have an allergy or have a bad reaction to a conventional medication (or when the conventional meds no longer work), that looking to a natural alternative is simply part of the process that being a good horeperson entails. But I think that discussing such alternatives with your vet is also a good ides, instead of just using feeding your horse something willy nilly.

[Kemosabe]

@kiwichick

I think regarding bute and natural alternatives of the likes, there is just a selection of the general public that are trying to do the best by the horses (albeit in an uneducated manner)
There was recently a FB thread about alternatives to long term bute, and the suggestions were all the usual suspects (willow, devils claw, turmeric, aloe vera and lethicin which id never heard of in this particular scenario.)

The side effects of some of these are worse than bute long term, and the others have no evidence whatsoever that they have any effect on pain management.

However people think natural = better, safer, kinder. unintentional ignorance I think plays a huge part.

I don’t know that the side effects of the plants and substances named in this posting are worse than bute long term. I would say that some of them are similar to bute long term.

Devils Claw like bute and aspirin can contribute to the formation of ulcers, but for different reasons. Bute, aspirin, banamine can cause ulcers to form along the entire GI tract because of their effect on prostaglandins. Devils claw can increase stomach acid production, irritating the mucosa, which can result in ulceration. Two different mechanisms with the same result.

Turmeric contains oxalates. High doses of turmeric would not be a great choice for horses with kidney or bladder stones.
But then neither is bute which can predispose urolith formation.

Aloe gel taken internally has thousands of years of use and few precautions. How it would play a role as an alternative to long term bute is questionable. But perhaps to protect the lining of the GI tract.

Lecithin (also known as phosphatidl choline) is a phospholipid in animal and plant cell membranes. According to researchers at the University of Texas Health Science Center in Houston the administration of phosphatide choline along with NSAIDs reduced gastrointestinal injury, and without altering the efficacy of bute or other NSAIDs.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20135022

[dungrulla]

@Kemosabe

I don’t know that the side effects of the plants and substances named in this posting are worse than bute long term. I would say that some of them are similar to bute long term.

Devils Claw like bute and aspirin can contribute to the formation of ulcers, but for different reasons. Bute, aspirin, banamine can cause ulcers to form along the entire GI tract because of their effect on prostaglandins. Devils claw can increase stomach acid production, irritating the mucosa, which can result in ulceration. Two different mechanisms with the same result.

Devil’s claw is actually an NSAID too so it also inhibits prostaglandins.

[Bluey]

Spam reported.

Spammer bumped old thread.