Navicular--is it the kiss of death? Help!!!

[chitowncd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chitowncd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you don’t want any frog pressure in a NS horse, then why does it help to use the equi-pak poured pads in one? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what Tom means by frog pressure is a heart bar. That’s mechanical pressure. It’s been a while, but IIRC, a heart bar is used on foundered horses to shift the horse’s turnover/weighting(?) over the P3, or bony column, to remove pressure from the rotated coffin bone. So if you have a horse with navicular, a heart bar will do no good since the navicular bone lies in the general P3 area.

I reserve the right for my memory to be off. It’s been a while since I’ve dealt with both a foundered horse (albeit very mildly) and a navicular one. The navicular horse was a very upright critter and had a one-up one-down conformation in the front. If the foot was trimmed to the slightest nth of a degree off, he’d still limp even in eggbars.

A pour in pad is there to absorb shock. In an NS horse, it’s a Good Thing to reduce shock. It can’t apply enough pressure by its’ own nature to have any effect. The horse would need a heart bar or something like it on top of the pad, to apply direct pressure every time the horse took a step. Obviously, that’s Not a Good Idea.

Welcome, Senor Tomas! You may now smack me about if all those years of reading your posts haven’t sunk in.

Michele <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[slb]

I have not overlooked your website in my studies. As I said, I include all the information that I can find on the subject. Thanks for the chat, but I really don’t think it fitting to continue this conversation on this board.

[Tom_Stovall_CJF1]

Originally posted by LMH:

LOL-it appears we have posted at the same time and reached the same conclusion.

I do however have a “follow-up” question or statement…are you saying Bowker just had this idea and has no real case studies to prove it…and this is the basis of his publications?
He never tested his lower the heel idea on any horses?

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Here are the URLs to a couple of Bowker’s observations. Please read them carefully, then ask yourself whether or not his hypotheses have been confirmed by testing and the results published for peer review. Please understand, that an unconfirmed hypothesis, no matter how well swaddled in high sounding rhetoric and authoritative academic doublespeak, is still just a guess.</span>

<A HREF=“http://cvm.msu.edu/news/press/phytrim.htm” TARGET=_blank>
[URL=http://cvm.msu.edu/news/press/phytrim.htm]</A>

[Cindeye_sEvilTwin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
hey cindeye! i didnt see ya over there waves

welcome to the great farrier/hoof debate-careful its gettin kinda heated-might wanna push your chair back a bit

btw who has the papasan couch now? the girls over in probation still using it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Waves back It is I, Cindeye

You might want to go back over and retrieve the papasan couch. Last I saw someone had spilled a chocolate martini and it looked like the stain was going to be pretty bad.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
I am also a little fuzzy on a point-if someone pulls a bar shoe off your horse, his performance will suffer…so in essence, the bar shoe is just masking the pain isn’t it?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I rather think the bar shoe is alleviating the pain. I’d be interested to see how they have an analgesic effect.

[Tom_Stovall_CJF1]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LMH:
Tom did you get tired of playing with me? I thought I had some good questions for you

I am also a little fuzzy on a point-if someone pulls a bar shoe off your horse, his performance will suffer…so in essence, the bar shoe is just masking the pain isn’t it?

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>No ma’am, a “mask” would be some means - chemical or mechanical - of interfering with the transmission of nervous impulses. A bar shoe does not affect the transmission of nervous impulses, it affects the cause of the pain. To illustrate: Consider the pain attendant to a badly sheared heel and the near instantaneous relief on application of a bar shoe. The bar shoe does not mask the pain, it stops the movement of the affected structures that are causing the pain.</span>

A short term “fix” to allow horses to show, compete.

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>It has not been demonstrated that any
correctly applied mechanical “fix” is inherently short term; in my experience, horses have died of old age while wearing needed bar shoes. </span>

However, what IF the “newer” methods of treating “N” pain offered pain free performance without the fix—but it took longer…have you considered that option?

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Your argument is specious: Your premise has not been demonstrated existent and demands an answer based on conjecture.</span>

I guess I am just curious why you reject the idea of lowering heels to assist in relieving heel pain, when there are others that are having success with this method?

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Who exactly is having “success” by whacking off the heels of horses diagnosed with navicular syndrome? Where are the tests published confirming the hypothesis? Where is the replication? The usual order of business is to observe a phenomenon, formulate a hypothesis (SWAG), confirm the hypothesis by testing, and the publication of the results in a discipline specific journal for peer review so that anyone with an interest can test the hypothesis and replicate the results. It’s a long way from academia to the show ring, but there are rules in both places - and touting an unconfirmed hypothesis is analogous to rapping a jumper in the practice ring - it ain’t kosher.</span>

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Frog pressure in NS horses is contraindicated in every text from Lungwitz to Stashak and its immediate, deleterious, effect is readily demonstrable. I guess it’s a case of, “Who am I going to believe: the ‘research’, or my lying eyes?”</span>

[Lookout]

Just curious, why you would assume that. Generally speaking farriers shorten toes from the bottom, not by backing them up.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
If you change his toe length, wouldn’t that change his hoof angle? If so how can each still be considered balanced and aligned with different angles? ( I am assuming you are shortening the toe by backing it up, as opposed to shortening the foot overall from the bottom, please correct me if that assumption is wrong).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[LMH]

whoa—I guess I willingly entered the battlefield so here I am

I assumed what I did because when I think of shortening a toe, I think of backing it up…I asked to be sure Tom and I were talking apples and apples—I don’t think it matters which way I assumed as I asked him to clarify-which he did.

I do not know enough farriers nationwide to know which method (shortening from the bottom vs. backing up) that most use…I actually had no idea that there was a generalization…and to be honest would have thought that Tom was talking about backing up toes.

And to Tom…if I might I would like to respectfully disagree with your conclusion regarding dressage horses…in any discipline there are good and bad, well trained and not so well trained horses…I come from a hunter background but have great respect for dressage horses and cutters simply make my heart sing so I don’t think I carry any bias in this regard.

I should think, and try to think about this, that a horse at upper levels that performs lateral moves, tempi changes, piaffe and passage—quiet often (ok perhaps not as often as we would like but let’s dream a bit) in self carriage without assistance of the rein aids of the rider…in particular bridleless demonstrations come to mind, anyway these horses are indeed using themselves…top level athletes are just that-I don’t think it fair to determine a pecking order of fitness…I dare say a good reiner and dressage horse could go head to head any day

And to those offering the kind comments about my “diplomacy” …I guess I am just in a pleasant mood! LOL!

Besides, I have siad before, I enjoy these threads for the learning and thought stimulation…so I like to hear all sides…at the end we may not all agree but I will guarantee something will be gained.

[Lookout]

One need only observe the reality to know this is not true. It can be done by cross-sectioning a foot and applying downward pressure and it will be visible that none of the below actually happens. If this is too complicated it can be observed on Pollitt’s video.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
In response to one of my essays, someone wrote:

“There is no pressure on the navicular bone from the DDFT. In fact the more weight the horse applies to the foot the further the DDFT is pushed away from the bone. Therefore there is no reason to expect these recommendations to work, since the problem is misunderstood - backwards…”
deep digital flexor tendon originates on the flexor muscles and inserts on the semiluner crest of the third phalanx and adjacent surface of the collateral cartlidge of the third phalanx. The DDFT uses the navicular bone (aka, distal sesamoid) and proximal sesmoids as fulcurms.

The flexor muscles transfer their energy to motion through the action of flexor tendons on bone. The DDFT is the largest of these tendons and uses several fulcrums on the bony column to increase the muscles’ ability to transfer energy through leverage. Archimedes at work!

Since the navicular bone is used as a fulcrum by the DDFT, it follows that contraction of the DDF flexor muscles must place the navicular bone in some degree of compression. Furthermore, physical law dictates that the more acute (lower) the phalangeal angle, the greater the amount of compression. Put another way, if one whacks of the heels off a horse with navicular syndrome as advocated by the current crop of “natural” folks, one unarguably places the navicular bone in greater compression.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Lookout]

Who was talking about any of this? (other than you?) Why do you keep having conversations with yourself? You can do that without a BB. Stuff that works? Sounds like you set the bar pretty low for success.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
On the other hand, folks who subject their horses to the tender ministrations of the barefoot-at-any-cost movement are operating on untested protocols resultant of hypotheses that have never been subjected to scientific testing, publication and peer review - often with deleterious effect to the horses involved. In the unlikely event that barefoot basket cases - much less sound horses - start winning races, puissances, and grand prix, they’ll still be plowing ground that was long ago tilled by traditional farriery.

As advertised, I’m a fan of stuff that works. On the other hand, I have the utmost contempt for anyone who allows a horse to live in pain in order to adhere to the anti-scientific nonsense of some politically correct, cult-leading, franchise seller. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[cyberbay]

Actually, he’s not ‘cured,’ but knockonwood, he’s had a good couple of weeks and feels quite happy. He’s in bar shoes, degree pads, and on isox and Adequan…

[Lookout]

And they also diagnose it by blocking the foot - “removing” the pain. Where is this distinction you’re seeing between analgesic and mechanical?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Put another way, because the presence of pain in the heel area is one of the primary symptoms by which veterinarians diagnose NS, it follows that any procedure that effectively palliates the symptoms - and does not involve drugs or surgery - must be mechanical.</span>

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>One realizes reality can be a hard pill to swallow, but it’s none the less reality.</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tom_Stovall_CJF1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JB:
Ok Tom Stovall, I had to go look you up and found your site. I was reading the article on the 4-pt trim and have LOTS of questions on this statement:

"Basically, the so-called “four point trim” or “natural trim” is a reflection of the wear of horses’ feet in abrasive environments, but such wear cannot be demonstrated to be a Good Thing. Trimming a horse a certain way because they will eventually wear their feet in that manner is just as logical as rasping off the rubber on one’s tires because that’s the way they’ll eventually wear. "

Can you PLEASE explain how trimming the foot the way the horse is trimming it necessarily a bad thing? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The way a horse at liberty wears its foot in an abrasive environment is not necessarily the most efficient form for the foot of a domestic horse in use.

The foot of any horse at liberty is always a reflection of its environment, but that foot does not need to be particularly efficient in terms of transference of energy into motion. On the other hand, the foot of horse in use should be the most efficient means of transferring energy to motion.

For example: Flat racers, steeplechasers, harness horses, and barrel horses are all speed horses engaged in objectively quantified activities, but the different physical demands of each discipline and the conformational differences between horses within each discipline require slightly different trimming/shoeing methods for each individual in order to obtain optimum efficiency.

One size does not fit all; the only absolute is physical law.

[Melelio]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Tom: when one pulls the bar shoes off a horse that needs them, the horse hurts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and when a human patient with smashed and shattered ribs comes into the hospital and is simply given morphine for the pain, he feels better, too. Should we send him home with a lifetime supply of morphine, and not fix the underlying problems?

You certainly are closed-minded, that’s been proven here in our own personal study. You enjoy band-aiding your clients’ horses. I think I’ll bow out of this conversation as I don’t think anything anyone says to you will satisfy you, unless we say “yessir yessir three bags full”. And I’m not one to bow low, ask my DH

slb and LMH, let’s go have a nice frothy cold one, and pop some popcorn, sit back on the porch swing and watch…

[Tom_Stovall_CJF1]

For those who are under the impression that the deep digital flexor tendon does not use the navicular bone as a fulcrum or anyone who thinks whacking off the heels of a horse with normal angulation does not place the navicular bone in greater compression, I offer a simple little quiz:

After the heel of a club foot (i.e., angle of the dorsal surface of loaded P3 greater than 60º) is cut down as far as possible without causing a leak, does the heel always touch the ground on loading? If not, why not?

What happens to the heel of a clubfooted horse when the subcarpal (inferior check) ligament is cut?

Do tendons stretch?

[LMH]

mmmm…sorry another point caught my exhausted eye-regarding the AP balancing not being studied…then how would you know if long term damage is not indeed being done.

As far as the generalization that hunters last longer than hunters…again I think that just ALL depends on the total care provided, the overall athleticism and strength of the horse and many other factors that would prohibit making a sweeping statement. Granted just the fact the hunters max out at 4ft (regular working division) and traditional jumpers max out around 5’6" or so (not even taking into account puissance (spelling?), that alone of course can contribute to a horses longevity…however, different care provides different care.

Also regarding the dressage horses with shot hocks, just being in a betting kind of mood, I am willing to lay a little money that there are also horses competing in the disciplines that you mentioned, as well as WP horses and all other disciplines that are suffering from the same degeneration of hock joints.

So, bringing this back on track to the original topic…in a small readers digest version, could you explain to me your process and ultimate goal for treating a horse exhibiting navicular pain…obviously you want him pain free…but how exactly do you get there?

[LMH]

I got that link, thank you…

Perhaps we are splitting hairs here-but again not sure if i agree with your conclusion that his hypothesis is uncomfirmed…now I will admit that I am not as well read on the published research as you appear to be and as others, like slb are…I am still quite new at this so you might have to work with me here.

While I agree there are no direct footnotes or references to Study X performed on 24 domestic horses during such and such time frame, I do feel this article is not directed at readers looking for such detail…rather it appears this article is a summary, if you will, simply giving the overall concept of Bowkers studies…there is a reference to “supplementing his studies with observations in the field”, as well as the heel first landing being observed in “the majority of sound domestic horses.”

So he was obviously looking at some horses somewhere to confirm his hypothesis.

Also it appears his conclusion is indeed nothing new-just old news so old and forgotten that it is considered new again.

If I am not mistaken this is also the principles adhered to by Gene O (Natural Balance shoes, for those reading along) and I do believe he can boast quite a success rate in maintaining sound horses with these principles.

So where is the fault in the logic of this article?

Also if someone, again talking to a 12yo let’s say, would please summarize for me the differences in theories between what Tom is talking about and what slb is talking about regarding the function and malfunction of the DDFT and navicular bone…I for one would apprecite a concise summary in one place

[Tom_Stovall_CJF1]

Originally posted by slb:

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In another post, I wrote,<span class=“ev_code_RED”>"The etiology of navicular syndrome is described in various veterinary and farrier texts mainly as concussion and various predisposing factors - especially the extremely upright, big horse/ small foot presentation common to Quarter-types.</span> Perhaps you missed it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn’t miss it…I simply wanted clarification on your assumptions of navicular as you attempt to treat them. Having a better understanding of what you assume is the cause in the majority of cases helps to gain a better understanding of why you believe that your methods work and the protocols that I refer to do not.
[/QUOTE]

As advertised, I’m a fan of stuff that works and I try to trim/shoe each individual based on the individual’s need, not what happens to trendy at the moment. I’m also a fan of cameras and stopwatches. I measure the efficacy of my protocols by the most simple of means: the individual’s response. In other words, when I have a bar shoe on a speed horse, you can bet your entire holdings that if somebody pulls that shoe off, that horse is not going to run as fast without it as he did with it.

I don’t trim/shoe on the basis of academic conjecture, I rely on demonstrable efficacy.

I can’t say I’ve ever “cured” any form of navicular syndrome, but I’ve returned several to service, and done so on a timely basis - as in limp on the mats, walk off sound. Horses trimmed/shod according to the protocols I espouse have won G-1 stakes, barrel racing go-rounds at the NFR, high dollar grand prix, and countless other measures of speed, athletic ability, and agility. As a consequence, I’m not quite ready to place any reliance on the untested protocols of academia, no matter how highly touted.

I’d be most interested in knowing what you’d do for a barrel horse that has been diagnosed with NS in October when the richest rodeo in the world, the NFR, is coming up in December. BTDT, it’s not a fun thing.

[IndysMom]

Bea,
Thanks. I’ll check with him on that, but I suspect it won’t apply since he has pristine navicular bones-no changes at all. Just like 50% of horses who have this diagnosis.

[Lookout]

um, so you’re answering your own questions?