Navicular--is it the kiss of death? Help!!!

Thanks for all the information and posting. I’ve been wading through the recommended articles. I may have missed a point, but it seems that all that I’m doing now is about all there is to do??, if I want the horse to stay in work during this period. Thanks, Bea, for the extra info of tiludronate. A horse in the barn has been treated with that, by IV drip, I believe, but don’t know the outcome (he’s still slightly off, actually, so that may have been the outcome).

Thanks, Pocket pony, postingtrot, slb, Indysmom (I hope it’s going OK for you, too), and swampgum for all of your great suggestions. Thanks to Tom S. for weighing in directly and for everyone for keeping the discussion going. So far, so good with this horse, who is happy to be back in work and doing something with his body. Then again, he might be lame when I go see him this a’noon!

With such a low success rate, what is it exactly you’re trying to teach?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
If my humble Q&A methods of teaching technical farriery discombobulate you, for goodness sake, quit reading my stuff lest it cause you to
think - thereby breaking a precedent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmmm…without jumping to fast to conclusions, perhaps we have indeed found the source of the discrepancy…and I believe slb touched on this point in an earlier post…something to the effect of farrier work for the people clients vs. farrier work for the horse client.

In an ideal work, these two goals should be one, but sadly I would say that is often not the common occurence.

Tom, you have made several references in your posts to doing what is needed to get a horse back to performing as soon as possible–obviously a necessary goal to keep clients happy and your bills paid…you do what you have found to be, acccording to your experiences, the safest method possible to achieve the goal of returned performance in the shortest time possible. Obviously at some point, this cannot be achieved with any method and time will be the only solution.

However I think others come from a different perspective, long term soundness even at the expense of current competition.

I of course am not saying your method is a guaranteed wash in 6 months or 2 years and the other method is a guaranteed soundness for 10 years…however some grey mixing of this idea I do believe is the truth.

Take underrun heels for example-add a wedge and horse is short term sound-but even by your own admissions long term use of wedges will infact further crush the heels causing more complications. SO client has huge competition, you are her new farrier–waddya gonna do? Tell her this will take you one year to repair or put the wedge on and deal with it later?

Usually plan B goes into effect under this scenario.

Now, my limited personal experience would show that it is even faster to correct by working with the horse barefoot-but whoa nellie, now the competitive owner is gonna really flip her wig because there will NOT be show next week or the week after with this method.

Would you be willing to meet somewhere in this area, with this conclusion?

Originally posted by Bensmom:

[deletia]

He is also poured with the equi-pak stuff from Vettec, as we find this really helps his problem with thin soles.

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>In my experience, various substances (soft acrylics, urethanes, silicones, etc.) that offer the sensitive sole added protection from environmental pressure can be of value in the mechanical palliation/treatment of the symptoms associated with the “N” word, probably because they play a role in the reduction of concussion to the coffin joint, as well as affording protection. In my experience, they are particularly effective when a major predisposing factor is upright conformation, especially if/when the horse has been diagnosed with pedal osteitis.</span>

[…]

Thoughts? Ideas? My treating professionals are a bit at a loss because the “traditional” things you do to help horses that may be Navicular they don’t think are applicable to my horse.

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Since your horse is responding favorably to the poured pads, you might ask your farrier and vet about using poured pads in conjunction with a pair of aluminum bars. The additional mass without added weight may be beneficial in terms of protection.</span>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
Then you assume that all or at least the majority of navicular syndrome is the result of compression? What about concussion? And how does misalingment of the joints promote or reduce compression? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please don’t be disingenuous. I have assumed nothing, I responded to several posts in which you and another scholar questioned the role of compression of the navicular bone by the DDFT in the etiology of navicular syndrome. I did not delineate the causes, I pointed out your errors.

In another post, I wrote,<span class=“ev_code_RED”>"The etiology of navicular syndrome is described in various veterinary and farrier texts mainly as concussion and various predisposing factors - especially the extremely upright, big horse/ small foot presentation common to Quarter-types.</span> Perhaps you missed it.

[deletia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And another FYI:
If you look beyond current university texts, you will find that researchers that teach out of those books find flaws in them. For example, Dr. Lewis…“father of protein caues problems in growing horses”…has long since retracted his negative statements about protein, but it still remains in univeristy texts and is still taught in the classroom. It is generally agreed that vets are coming out of school at least a decade or more behind the research. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Generally agreed by whom? I find most newly minted large equine practitioners, fresh out of residency, to be typically knowledgeable of the latest research and woefully lacking in knowledge of life beyond academia. Perhaps your experience differs, but both the faculty and residents at Texas A&M are deeply involved in equine research. See also: David Hood, DVM; William Moyer, DVM.

There is no pressure on the navicular bone from the DDFT. In fact the more weight the horse applies to the foot the further the DDFT is pushed away from the bone. Therefore there is no reason to expect these recommendations to work, since the problem is misunderstood - backwards.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IndysMom:
Navicular Syndrome: Shoeing Methods
© Tom Stovall, CJF

Shoeing for NS must meet several criteria if it is to be successful: it must decrease pressure on the navicular bone from the deep digital flexor tendon, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
I think we need to be a little more specific and correct in terminology here-I don’t think anyone suggested “whacking off the heels” of a NS horse…what I do think has been suggested here and supported by Gene Ovnicek of Natural Balance is returning the foot to a balanced state—achieved by lowering the heels over time(not whacking) and addressing the point of breakover, ultimately to achieve heel first landing.

Am I mistaken that this is the theory promoted by Gene? ill admit I could be, but I thought this was, at least in general terms, the theory of Natural Balance…

If I am correct in my understanding of Gene’s theory then there is someone quite successful in treating NS horses in this fashion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Relative to claims of, “Returning the foot to a balanced state” and similar stuff, I think it’s incumbent on the claimant to first demonstrate the presence of inherent imbalance in domestic feet. It hasn’t happened.</span>

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>To my knowledge, neither Ovnicek’s nor Bowker’s claims have ever been scientifically tested - the claimed efficacy of their protocols are based strictly on observations and testimonials of the faithful, not those troublesome double blinds and control groups.</span>

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>In terms of demonstrating efficacy, it’s not a matter of “If you pull the bar shoe off one of my runners, he’s going to back up;” instead, it’s a matter of "You gotta believe.</span>

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>I don’t.</span>.

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>On his website*, Ovnicek questions the advisability of making efficiency a primary criterion of trimming/shoeing:</span>

<span class=“ev_code_BLUE”>“Perhaps we should ask ourselves a couple of questions. Does a domestic hoof need to be efficient?..”</span>

<span class=“ev_code_BLUE”>“And how important is efficient function when considering the added demands of rider weight, tack and discipline? And if ‘form to efficient function’ is the goal, now that we have been provided with more of the answers as to what forces help shape feral horse function
and efficiency, can we use some of that information to help achieve efficient function in domestic hooves? Some food for thought…”</span>

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>As advertised, the foot of a horse at liberty in an abrasive environment is a flawed model for horses in use in varied environments because a horse at liberty neither carries weight nor engages in forced exercise. When one places 15% or more of the horse’s body weight just aft of the horse’s withers and requires the beast work for a living, then efficiency in the transference of muscle action to motion becomes the most important criterion by which trimming/shoeing can be judged. More food for thought.</span>

*http://www.hopeforsoundness.com

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by swampgum:
Keeping heels low IS necessary in keeping proper hoof form. Horses running in their natural environment maintain very low heel. It is only through incompetent hoof care of horses being kept in confined soft environments that horses have heel height which leads to navicular, contraction and circulation impediment due to a non functioning frog. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So much misinformation, so little time.

Horses at liberty in arid, abrasive environments usually have low heels; horses at liberty in moist, soft environments relatively high heels; horses at liberty in semi-arid, grassy environments (i.e., the Great Plains of the central USA) do not present with heels of common heights.

For horses in use, in terms of efficiency, lowering the heels of a horse with normal angulation in order to increase frog pressure invariably has a deleterious effect. Doing so places the navicular bone in increased compression by the DDFT, decreases the blood supply to the navicular area through impingement, reduces the ability of the suspensory apparatus to deal with concussion, and places a greater concussive burden on the bony column.

Put another way, while one may be able to whack off the heels of a pasture ornament without ill effect, horses that work for a living will suffer from such trendy nonsense.

The etiology of navicular syndrome is described in various veterinary and farrier texts mainly as concussion and various predisposing factors - especially the extremely upright, big horse/ small foot presentation common to Quarter-types.
It is not described as “lack of frog pressure.”

Please spare me any apples-to-oranges observations made on feral horse foot structure, the real world is comprised of domestic horses in use. Theory works great on pasture potatos, but Archimedes still calls the shots when horses work for a living.

nah too comfy in my beanbag-i will just have to sue someone over it

LMH – He is only lame on the right front right after shoeing, and this only started since we quit pouring him in April. He has gone April, May, June, July, August, so five months total, without the equi-pak and the last three shoeings for sure, he’s been lame following nailing.

He’s always jerked that foot when the nails are hammered in, but usually is ok as soon as the farrier is done. The horse trader I bought him from as a 3 year old was whacking his feet off, chopping off the heels and popping keg shoes on – we’ve always assumed he was quicking him on a regular basis and he’s anticipated pain ever since.

On the “club foot” he is fine. The “clubby” foot is NOT broken forward actually – in fact, that is one reason we don’t think it qualifies as a true “club” foot. The lower heeled foot now x-rays with a slightly forward axis. It was broken back the last time. That is the foot that is at 52 degrees, which the farrier just happened to note when he checked it after hearing the vet say broken forward – he has tried to find an angle that works for this particular horse, so he can check himself as he goes through the year without having to shoot x-rays. He isn’t trying to get him to a set point – does that make sense?

Visually, this foot appears balanced. And, to the farrier’s credit, the x-ray shows that the broken forward axis is not much – I haven’t measured it myself, but the vet says it is there.

The vet and I are wondering if the combination of taking away the poured pads, plus the slightly forward axis of the foot, combined to increase concussion on the foot, causing the coffin joint to become inflamed and start the process of the breakdown of the joint fluid. So on and so forth, with the inflammation of the heel bulbs and heel tissues being secondary to that.

We know that during the time he was a tad bit long toe/low heel on that foot, that it caused undue strain on the tendons and ligaments, as he strained the annular ligament that goes around the back of the ankle and did 60 days stall rest and rehab, during which time we checked the feet and balanced the foot. So, the additional “roughness” that is around the edges of the navicular bone may have developed around the same time and now that that problem is corrected, further deterioration may have been stopped.

I wish there was a way to take x-rays every reset so we knew exactly what happened when!

It may be my imagination, but he seems to be moving a bit more comfortably since the joint injection – he’s in a stall until Saturday morning, but even going out to hand graze he appears more comfortable.

As arthritic changes are irreversible, it is pretty important to me that we do the best we can for him and prevent what we can – he is truly only barelybarelybarely lame. I mean, most people that aren’t obsessive wouldn’t have noticed it yet We just happen to have a level asphalt road that I jog them for soundness on – on the dirt/grass he jogs 100% sound. Go figure. I’d just rather fix it now, than once he is unrepairable.

Thanks for the input!

Libby

Originally posted by Lookout:
Your claim that it “mechanically” addresses the source of the pain is equally as much a personal conjecture.

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Unless you believe there’s some sort of farrier conspiracy in which we ne’er-do-wells are secretly performing posterior digital neurectomies or blocks in public without benefit of veterinary imprimatur while simultaneously applying various devices that can only be considered mechanical in nature - various types of shoes and pads - any palliation of symptoms attendant to our tender ministrations would have to be mechanical in nature.</span>

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Put another way, because the presence of pain in the heel area is one of the primary symptoms by which veterinarians diagnose NS, it follows that any procedure that effectively palliates the symptoms - and does not involve drugs or surgery - must be mechanical.</span>

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>One realizes reality can be a hard pill to swallow, but it’s none the less reality.</span>

First off, this is long, I’ve copied it from the website. It’s the FIRST and ONLY article I’ve seen that indicates that navicular MAY NOT be the kiss of death. With a recently diagnosed horse who is an absolute cadillac, I’m going to hang on to the hope written in here and persevere.

Navicular Syndrome: Shoeing Methods
© Tom Stovall, CJF

Navicular Syndrome is any lameness in the rear third of a front foot which will block out with a posterior digital nerve block, usually both fronts are involved, although this is sometimes not evident until one is blocked.

All methods of shoeing for NS are palliative in nature. A farrier can’t cure or correct anything, he can only relieve the symptoms to some degree. One hears the term “corrective shoeing” used in the treatment of NS horses however, “corrective” is a misnomer: no method of shoeing will “correct” the condition.

Shoeing for NS must meet several criteria if it is to be successful: it must decrease pressure on the navicular bone from the deep digital flexor tendon, it must enhance breakover, and it must protect the rear third of the foot from environmental pressure.

The classic method of shoeing the NS horse is called, “Stand 'em up and turn 'em over.” This means that the farrier will do whatever he can to decrease the length of the phalangeal lever and to increase phalangeal angulation.

Increased angulation can be accomplished by several methods: cutting the toe, mechanically raising the heels, and setting the shoe under. Since the farrier is unable to grow hoof, raising the heels is sometimes accomplished through the use of wedge pad(s) and various types of non-traction calks; e.g., roll calks, wedge calks, etc.

Why is increased phalangeal angulation a Good Thing? Because this relieves the pressure exerted upon the navicular bone by the deep flexor tendon which uses the navicular bone as a fulcrum before it inserts into P3 (coffin bone, third phalanx). The navicular bone comprises the posterior portion of the coffin (distal interphalangeal, DIJ) joint and is subjected to compression by the DDFT every time the foot is turned over. Increased angulation relieves pressure from the DDFT, but how is turnover enhanced?

Turnover is enhanced, in the main, by shortening the phalangeal lever.

The lever is shortened, primarily, by cutting off as much toe as possible.

Next, by several means: through choice of configuration of shoe materials; i.e., the use of half-rounds, aluminum (which becomes a de-facto half-round with wear) and hot-rasping the ground surface of the toe of a conventional shoe. Finally, and most important from the standpoint of enhanced turnover, the shoe must be set under so that an imaginary line from the front of the fetlock, bisecting the toe, to the ground, is as short as possible.
By setting the shoe under, turnover is enhanced, and pressure on the DDFT is reduced as a direct result. The obvious limiting factor to setting the shoe under is the white line; however, the shoe can be set under to the posterior edge of the white line if necessary. The toe should be “chopped off” (cut off perpendicular to the ground) rather than “feathered” to the coronary band in an effort to make the foot look “pretty”. Excessive rasping, aka, “feathering the toe”, destroys the structural integrity of the hoof.

The easiest method of protecting the rear third of the foot is the use of a bar shoe. Underslung, low-heeled horses respond best to conventional (track-style) egg bars, probably because, being set under, the increased support relieves pressure exerted by the DDFT. Upright horses seem to respond better to the more circular style of egg bars or straight bars.

All styles may be configured with a “frog cradle” which protects the frog from environmental pressure; however, if moisture or weak heels is not a problem, it’s sometimes more efficient to use a wedge pad or bar wedge pad to accomplish the same result.

Many racetrackers have heard the old wives’ tale: “A horse can’t run in bar shoes”. The truth of the matter is that any horse that needs bar shoes, can’t run with out them.

The aforementioned methods of farriery may be used individually or in combination. A horse with minor symptoms might be shod with half-rounds slightly set under; a horse with serious problems, with aluminum egg bars set under as much as possible and three degree bar wedge pads.

Navicular problems range in severity from a slight bruise to the navicular bursa to a fractured navicular bone. They are all treated, mechanically, in much the same manner with the exception being that DIJ problems are sometimes palliated by means of a pressure bar which applies general (as opposed to apexal) pressure on the frog.

Navicular Syndrome is no longer the Kiss of Death it once was. Due to farrier/veterinary cooperation resulting in a greatly increased body of knowledge relative to the diagnosis and treatment of this syndrome, horses which would have been euthanized 20 years ago are now dying of old age after leading full, active lives.

Tom Stovall is an American Farriers Association Certified Journeyman Farrier since 1983, a Member of the Texas Professional Farriers Association, and a Member of the Artists-Blacksmiths Association of North America. Thanks to him for his permission to post this article.

Don’t you think your horse would be better off if you let him heal without asking him to work during his rehabilitation/recovery? How can stressing him during recovery allow that recovery to happen? If something is “allowing” him to remain in work while injured, you have to ask yourself what that correction is really doing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyberbay:
The point is that I am looking for information about managing navicular discomfort while keeping the horse in work, or, put another way, managing the discomfort so that the horse can remain in work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Tom, you posted while I posted…would you please explain (generally) how you would trim a jumper different from a dressage? Or choose a different comparison if there is no difference in that one…for example do you leave more heel on a jumper? more toe? etc?

Wouldn’t a foot in balance be a foot in balance regardless of the discipline in which the horse is used? How can you change trims from use to use and still end up with a foot that is balanced and the joints aligned? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let’s say we have a nice 8yo Dutch Warmblood (hereinafter called, “Dumblood”), that is reasonably athletic, a decent mover, with unremarkable conformation. We want to set the horse up to be as good as he can be in each discipline, jumping and dressage.

If we want to trim/shoe Dumblood as a jumper, then we will do whatever it takes to insure he is trimmed/shod as efficiently as possible for whatever environments he may encounter - anything from wet grass to deep sand.

We’ll trim Dumblood with as short a toe as is practicable, the exfoliating sole and bars will be trimmed slightly below the ground surface of the wall, and we’ll leave the frog alone except as is necessary to maintain the self-cleaning properties of the foot. Nothing extraordinary:
natural, aligned, angulation. Next, we’ll use a lateral radiograph to insure the phalanges are aligned and an a/p shot to insure the spaces on either side of the midline of the pastern (aka, PIJ) and coffin (aka, DIJ) joints are the equal.
Assuming no corrections are necessary, we’ll most likely apply 3/4" or 7/8" steel half rounds in front, with the heels drilled and tapped for 3/8" 16t screw-in calks. (The only time the screw-ins will be installed is when Dumblood is schooling or jumping.) Dumblood’s hinds will be trimmed and shod in a similar manner, but we’ll nail on hot fit, quarter clipped Kerckhearts or Werkmans, heels drilled and tapped for 3/8" 16t screw-ins. (Jumpers routinely torque a loaded foot, which usually requires clips.)

When shoeing jumpers, the object of the exercise is to allow the horse move as efficiently as possible because jumping is an objectively quantified endeavor.

Dressage horses are whole different ballgame because their movement is subjectively quantified according to an artificial ideal. As a consequence, Dumblood will be trimmed a bit differently as a dressage horse: Balance and alignment will be the same, but instead of trimming the foot as short as practicable, we’ll leave a bit more toe, which will will make Dumblood work a bit harder to turn his foot over, thereby giving him a flatter knee, and the appearance, not the reality, of greater extension. The inefficiency won’t hurt him, because because dressage horses don’t really use themselves.

Since Dumblood’s connections just decided to make a dressage horse out of him, he won’t have hock problems; but, as he progresses through the training levels, he probably will. If I have my way, we’ll leave him barefoot behind. Many dressage horses go as good as they can barefooted, but most DQs and their trainers insist on shoes. I usually use Kerckhaert SSPs because they are have plenty of web and are well suited for Warmbloods. About the time a horse makes it to Prix St. George, his hocks are gone and I switch to half rounds behind if they won’t let me leave the horse barefooted.

Unless a horse is interfering, balance and alignment are always be the primary consideration in trimming/shoeing in any discipline, but there are many, many, subtle variations one can be make within normal parameters that can change the way a horse moves. No two are exactly alike; no two are trimmed/shod exactly alike.

Erratum: My apologies, I’m still trying to figure this thing out. The other URL:
[URL=http://cvm.msu.edu/news/press/footphy.htm]

If this doesn’t work, please cut and paste.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
Can’t, hasn’t, someone done a 3D computer model of a horse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the “Glass Horse” folks have recently come out with a musculoskeletal module, but I haven’t seen it yet.

  • Stretches. Pushes chair back a bit to avoid being hit by a ball. *

This is a great thread. It’s snarky AND I’m learning something. Please, please continue.

Perhaps this is too simple an analogy but wasn’t the fact the earth is round an uncomfirmed hypothesis at some point

I had a horse 10+ years ago whom was “nerved” (cuts the nerve endings in the foot). He never had special shoes. Hindsight, there are probably better things (more modern) methods to deal with Navicular, but this worked for him. Many people claim a LOT of negative drawbacks, but I never had those. He competed Novice until his retirement at 21.

GUESS WHAT?? My horse is cured!! He’s been reading these posts over my shoulder, and he said that the back ‘n’ forth was better than any bute, any bar shoe, any Adequan ever could be and has decided that, so far, everybody’s help is the best medicine. (And he hopes he never has to go barefoot b/c his feet are so s----- that they would crumble to dust in the first 8 minutes of ‘losing’ them, and, “that would hurt more than any of this navicular stuff!”)

OK, tongue in cheek aside … It’s really made him feel great to know about all the people out there who have responded to help him feel his best. As his ‘mother,’ I, too, have found all of this input to be hugely edifying and that the COTH is the place to turn. This thread has all been printed out, I’ve been looking up the suggested articles, and it’s been a HUGE help from everyone.