First KC on the hoofwall thread, Tom here…so…at this rate when does Strasser arrive to give her 2c??? 
hey cindeye! i didnt see ya over there waves
welcome to the great farrier/hoof debate-careful its gettin kinda heated-might wanna push your chair back a bit
btw who has the papasan couch now? the girls over in probation still using it?
But isn’t that my point Tom? Someone had an idea and how was it “tested”—a guy sailed a ship out yonder and there ya go…isn’t that in essence (like I said maybe not the perfect analogy but it was after a beer 
) was Gene and Bowker are doing with each horse they use the theory on with success?
Again with Galileo—he had a theory against the “norm” (something like lowering heels for NS horses)…got criticized for it (kinda like the “newer methods do”) and proved the old fogies wrong (like only time will or will not do).
The fact is you base your ideas on old “proven scientific methods”—but that fact also remains that ideas or theories going against tried and true always face rejection and ridicule…until accepted . The list of scienitic ideas that were accepted for years, only to one day be rejected is I am sure as long as new notions that proved false…so only time will tell I suppose.
Um, nonadherance to THEORYS that havnt been proven to work in the real world with real horses?
Dutch, that is fine that he or you or anyone is frustrated with certain trim methods or barefoot horses in general…however I don’t think abrasive responses are the way to get people to listen.
Some of us do not have barefoot horses in order to make a political statement, rather got exhausted with the egos, snide comments, primadonna attitudes—not to mention, long toes, underrun heels, and a whole host of other imbalances.
So short of learning how to shoe a horse (quite an exhausting notion, to say the least) some of us looked for options—that don’t require hammering metal…that left barefoot horses.
Now we have to learn how to trim these horses…ask second in line to God? That usually gets received with the same enthusiasm as raw chicken served warm…
SO step two-find someone that will teach you—that would be barefoot trimmers. As with farriers, there are good trimmers and bad trimmers.
Sadly I found a bad one first and my horses paid the price…but not since then.
I don’t know about every horse condition on every horse-I can only speak for those in my care. They have balanced feet, the move better than they did in shoes, my old TB always had contracted muley feet-his are wider and strong, my 6yo has hock trouble-never was sound in shoes…is he sound now? Well he is ridden pain free even though he is still weak behind.
So with that in front of me, I choose this path. If you would introduce me to a farrier in my area that is open to communicating with the owner and committed to balancing feet, and doesn’t expect me to cater to his every need, I would be happy to sit down and talk with him.
Until then, we do the best we can for our horses-so far mine are not suffering, rather thriving as a result of the choices I have made.
Someone wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Your assessment of anatomy is correctly presented; however, your assessment of mechanics is no longer considered valid…much research has been conducted to dispute it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please feel free to cite any scientific study published for peer review that confirms any hypothesis that is in opposition to the mechanics of equid motion as I described. Muscle energy is transfered to motion by the action of tendons on bone and no “research” exists that contradicts that statement.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "While I agree on some of your points, “lowering heels” has little to do with “natural” anything…it has to do with correctly balancing and aligning the feet as per Butler,Adams and others. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For your edification, “balance” is the loaded position of the phalanges relative to the entire bony column and is quite different from “alignment,” which is the loaded position of the phalanges relative to each another.
Except as a means of remodeling the hoof capsule, lowering the heels, regardless of the horse’s individual phalangeal alignment, has never been advocated by Butler, Stashak, Rooney, O’Grady, Chapman, or any other recognized authority. On the other hand, lowering the heels without regard to the individual’s natural alignment has been advocated by several proponents (Strasser, et al) of the so-called “natural” or “barefoot” movement, a group that uses the feral horse foot as a model.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Treating pathologies has to do with restoring balance and alignment to allow for optimal form and function. Hindering blood flow or purposely misaligning joints does not promote healing in any form. Regardless of if the horse can be “healed”, comfort comes from goals of optimal alignment and balance. If the heels are too high or permanently wedged, they cannot contribute to correct balance/alignment within the hoof and complementary structures. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your inexperience is evident. Relative to farriery for incurable pathologies (e.g., fractures of the navicular bone, articular ringbone, pedal ostitis, etc.), “comfort” for the horse comes from the palliation of symptoms by mechanical means, not by the blind adherence to the untested protocols advocated by trendy, self-anointed gurus and folks in academia who confuse their observations with double blinds.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You guys have about 20 years of reading to catch up on…and don’t forget to close the cave door when you leave. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Like many folks long on theory and short on experience, your obvious inexperience renders you unable to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes farriery. I read the textbooks and journals, not the vanity publications and advertisements: Perhaps you would do well to do the same.
To paraphrase Guy Clark, I’m a big fan of stuff that works.
[Deletia in places, no attribute]
This is a very interesting suggestion, as we have been discussing this just yesterday. I was in one of the farrier supply shops in Ocala this weekend, and the enormous variety of shoes available is truly mind-boggling. He did not do well earlier this year when he was briefly in eggbars, though admittedly, that was without his pads. I really like the eventer shoe, and I know that St. Croix makes them in aluminum, but not in a straight bar configuration. What shoe would you suggest that would be able to be drilled and tapped, would have more grip than plain shoes and is made in a straight bar configuration?
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>I believe some outfit makes/made cast aluminum bar shoes, but for me, the easiest way to get any kind of aluminum bar is to weld it up myself. (I’d be mortified if anyone ever accused me of buying a bar shoe, I’ve been railing about the lack of forge skills in the younger generation for more’n 20 years.)</span>
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>IMO, Eventers don’t have enough mass, so I usually weld up my Al bars using Thorobred Grand Champions and 3/8" x 1" bar stock. The shoe is slightly wedged, but the wedge is easily hammered out if need be. The GC has a creased nail pattern, a steel wear plate at the toe, and enough mass to accept drilling and tapping for screw-ins. It comes unpunched, so the nail holes can be drilled in the swedge where they’re need. Unlike some Al shoes, they don’t get soft when they’re welded up.</span>
I don’t ask much, do I? 
I spent a great deal of time earlier this afternoon on the phone with the vet, and many of the factors point to coffin joint problems, so reducing concussion, which I understand a lighter shoe can help with, could be the one important shoeing change we could make. I also was told recently that an aluminum shoe can be a good choice for a horse with thin walls, also due to the lighter weight.
And not to be too much more difficult, but in the spirit of discussion, do I remember correctly that somewhere someone has claimed that aluminum shoes are detrimental to horses with navicular problems? Was this research or an unsupported theory?
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>I’ve heard aluminum shoes blamed for everything from farrier halitosis to Garfield’s assassination, but if any of that stuff were true, every flat racer and half the hunters in this country would be running on stumps instead of feet.</span>
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Just an odd bit of brain flatulence, but if your horse is diagnosed with DIJ problems and your vet wants to support the joint mechanically, then an aluminum pressure (aka, “heart”) bar with general (not apexal) pressure might be beneficial. It takes a brave farrier to nail a pressure bar on a horse diagnosed with “N” word syndrome because artificial frog pressure is usually contraindicated, but the shoe has been unarguably beneficial to some horses.</span>
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>For the edification of this forum, I posted the answers to my simple little quiz. It was not my intention to embarrass or bully anyone into attempting to answer the questions, my purpose was educational. </span>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
Yeah too bad no one took your bait.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You’ve confused bait with chum.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Like that couldn’t have all been covered in one post.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If my humble Q&A methods of teaching technical farriery discombobulate you, for goodness sake, quit reading my stuff lest it cause you to
think - thereby breaking a precedent.
Originally posted by Melelio:
Som, Tom, are you saying because Ovnicek and Bowker have not done the traditional study to your satisfaction, and published it in a vet magazine, even though he has the support from Vet schools, that they are WRONG?
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>I don’t genuflect in the direction of academia; I don’t give much credence to folks engaged in research who fail to follow the basic tenets of the scientific method.</span>
Do you know that they are wrong?..
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>The demonstration of any claim is the province of the claimant, not the skeptic.</span>
Have you really looked at their study with a clearly open mind?..
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>I haven’t seen any “study” done by either Bowker or Ovnicek. What I have seen are observations in which unsubstantiated opinions and meaningless anecdotes were substituted for data and unconfirmed hypotheses were accepted by some members of the farrier and veterinary community as though critical thinking was a mortal sin.</span>
I found it quite stimulating reading, and a very viable possibility, seeing as how this study of horse hoof mechanism has really come to the forefront in the last few years…
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>When I want “stimulating reading” I read James Lee Burke’s Robicheaux novels; when I want facts related to farriery, I peruse the texts and journals with a critical eye. Critical thinking is the fuel of the peer review process; without it, the scientific method is intellectually bankrupt.</span>
I do hope that all practitioners of any kind, human and animals, will keep their minds wide open to the possibilities.
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Having an open mind and the acceptance of unconfirmed hypotheses are poles apart; the former is indicative of a desire to learn; the latter, indicative of terminal gullibility.</span>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horse_poor:
lmh-i loff you-you need to become an international ambassador of goodwill 
you always keep/maintain the peace! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That’s a fact. It’s your fault I’m even reading this thread and had s/he not made the remark about dressage horses I would have had to wade into the fray with my shocked disappointment.
Tom, no…actually, I don’t get any joy out of beating my head against concrete, nor really watching others do so. Also, you don’t seem to be very personable, in how you like to put others down with your words. That’s a real shame. I hope your clients will stick with you a long time, because you won’t get more clients with that type of personality. Or do you just save that for us special folks?
<Riding off obliviously ignorant into the sunset, heading for the cliff Tom told me was there, but dang, I just didn’t listen…> 
Most likely, this horse will try barefoot if it comes to that, but it means coming out of work for this approach. Also, he has weak hoof walls, though pretty good hoof growth, so the transition to b’foot will be fraught, beyond just the normal “oooh, I think they forgot my shoes …” – the nature of my post was more tongue in cheek, in an attempt to, um, lighten the mood (!) and remember the original purpose! [Although the information has been great.] Going barefoot may help a lot of this, though.
The point is that I am looking for information about managing navicular discomfort while keeping the horse in work, or, put another way, managing the discomfort so that the horse can remain in work. Any horse can be turned away while trying remedies–and as noted above, this will most likely be the next turn if it comes to that; as well, as I didn’t mention in the initial post, this horse is high/low in front–born with a club foot and a platter in the other. The clubby is the one not so great at the moment.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AllWeatherGal:
It’s your fault I’m even reading this thread and had s/he not made the remark about dressage horses I would have had to wade into the fray with my shocked disappointment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
me??? moi??? how is it MY fault? and how can this thread be anywhere near diappointing, with or without the dressage comment?
perhaps i find it more entertaining as i know dutch personally and have heard him mention mr stovall on occassion-plus there is some snarkiness, which always makes for great entertainment
plus, i am actually learning something and will have dutch quiz me the next time he is here about what i have learned
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Re: I can’t say I’ve ever “cured” any form of navicular syndrome, but I’ve returned several to service, and done so on a timely basis - as in limp on the mats, walk off sound. Horses trimmed/shod according to the protocols I espouse have won G-1 stakes, barrel racing go-rounds at the NFR, high dollar grand prix, and countless other measures of speed, athletic ability, and agility. As a consequence, I’m not quite ready to place any reliance on the untested protocols of academia, no matter how highly touted…</span>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
My only response is that it is quite evident that you your success comes from working for the human client…and indeed many farriers do this as, afterall, it is they that pay the bills and insure the farrier’s continuted employment.
On the other hand, the success that I speak of comes from working for the equine client. If it takes a year for the horse to heal, then the human will have to “suck it up”. If not, then I suspect, they call you or those who subscribe to your methods. IMO, any horse in need of a therapeutic application should not be in world, national or even local competition. In my world, horses are expected to perform, but they are no longer treated as livestock. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Therein lies the difference between you and I and our approach to farriery. I define “success” as the application of whatever mechanical protocols will enable the horse to be both pain free and in use without deleterious effect.</span>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Please don’t be disingenuous. I have assumed nothing, I responded to several posts in which you and another scholar questioned the role of compression of the navicular bone by the DDFT in the etiology of navicular syndrome. I did not delineate the causes, I pointed out your errors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was an honest question…not an assumption or snide remark on my part. Since your comments have continuously contained information focused on compression, then I was asking if you assume that the majority of navicular cases are caused by compression related problems. This seems to be your focus in relieving DDFT pressure.
You have not addressed any errors that I made. I do not agree with Lookout in the statements on anatomy and mechanics. Perhaps I should have clarified that I was seconding the part of the statement that noted: “…there is no reason to expect these recommendations to work…”
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In another post, I wrote,<span class=“ev_code_RED”>“The etiology of navicular syndrome is described in various veterinary and farrier texts mainly as concussion and various predisposing factors - especially the extremely upright, big horse/ small foot presentation common to Quarter-types.</span> Perhaps you missed it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didn’t miss it…I simply wanted clarification on your assumptions of navicular as you attempt to treat them. Having a better understanding of what you assume is the cause in the majority of cases helps to gain a better understanding of why you believe that your methods work and the protocals that I refer to do not.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size=”-1">quote:</font><HR>Generally agreed by whom? I find most newly minted large equine practitioners, fresh out of residency, to be typically knowledgeable of the latest research and woefully lacking in knowledge of life beyond academia. Perhaps your experience differs, but both the faculty and residents at Texas A&M are deeply involved in equine research. See also: David Hood, DVM; William Moyer, DVM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am quite familiar with Hood and Moyer. Are you familar with researchers in the East? It is the researchers at Cornell and Penn State that have noted in their public lectures (not necessarily hoof related) that it often takes a decade to change vet texts and that the only way that vets are able to get revised information is if the instructor is researching and has an interest in the area being taught…which is not always the case. However, speaking in generalalities (not of vet schools), having taught at RPI, I would agree totally with your assessment…many grad students are sharp and often have had the advantage of getting cutting edge info in some of their studies (but not all) but greatly lack skills that apply in the real world.
- Pulls up a chair and gets out the Junior Mints and strawberry Twizzlers. Settles in for a long session of watching from the sidelines. Hopes she doesn’t develop tendonitis in her neck from watching the balls being batted back and forth.*
Forgot to say…check out www.naturalhorsetrim.com for more information on a “holistic” approach. Although, this is a pro-Strasser site, which I also have no experience with.
Ok, I’ll start with a question that concerns the “N” word, that my farrier and vet are currently avoiding using, to keep me from threatening to jump off a cliff somewhere
slb and the others posting here are very familiar with Ben’s feet and our search for balance, but the Reader’s Digest version is this: This horse has really crappy, too small QH feet on a 1200 lb body. He’s had some bad things done to his feet over time, but I’m working like hell to do the best I can for him.
One thing he is not, and has only been for a short time while I’ve owned him, on the right front, is long toe/low heel. He had a broken back angle on that foot at one point, but as soon as he strained an annular ligament jumping with that foot unbalanced, we corrected that pronto. The left front is very upright, and we’ve found out the hard way that lowering the heel is not an option – it doesn’t qualify as a true “club” foot, though many people would call it that, but it doesn’t really meet the criteria.
We’ve had concussion related problems in the right front that I’m sure of, for about 4 months. It may have gone on for longer than that, but previously there was always a bruise or something that would explain ouchiness when jogged on pavement there.
The last three resets he has been noticeably off for about 1.5 hours after the farrier is done nailing on that foot – this was bothering me, because that really tells me that something isn’t right.
So, we shot a new set of films last week, and in comparison to his films from 2000, (which is the last set we did that had navicular views - I’ve got a bunch of A/P and lateral shots from the last few years) he has some slight worsening of things around his navicular bone, but not bad. The vet did think he was a bit “broken forward” in his A/P angle. My farrier says that he is at 52 degrees, looks balanced, and so this is ridiculous.
He blocks 90% to the heel == it is a slight lameness, but the vet and I know his gaits so well, we can see it enough to block it.
The guess is that we may in fact, be dealing with the “N” word, but since he is currently almost perfectly balanced, and shod in bar shoes now (he wears St. Croix eventers that my farrier has welded a straight bar on – I had him in eggbars one time for about three weeks - that was rated a no-go, but the straight bars work well), we are unsure about what, if anything, can be changed about the way he is shod in order to help him.
He is also poured with the equi-pak stuff from Vettec, as we find this really helps his problem with thin soles.
He is not a candidate for barefoot – tried it, didn’t work – in our environment, his feet just wear off and he’s really lame.
I also don’t do wedge pads (my other horse is in wedged shoes with floated heels, but that is another question altogether) and all indications are that he doesn’t need to be wedged anyway, as his x-rays show that his heel ought to be lowered a tad bit, if anything.
The vet has checked to make sure there has been no rotation of the coffin bone by comparing the x-rays. We have injected the coffin joint, and the navicular bursa yesterday. When we went into the coffin joint, the vet was unable to get any joint fluid out to check the viscosity of it, and I’m wondering therefore if the joint is “dry.”
I’m most familiar with the navicular case of another horse in my barn who became LT/LH over time, was treated with wedge pads and his heels slid forward and crushed and he got lamer and lamer – we made changes in his shoeing and got closer to balanced, etc. and began pouring him and he made much improvement.
We’ve already done those things for my horse, so I can’t go there to make our improvements to help him – do you see damage to the coffin joint due to concussion? In a horse that has thin soles and the concussive effect of trotting on pavement or the pounding on the hoof causes pain, would increase or decrease the concussion by using the poured pads?
I want to do what is best for this horse, and to be able to keep him in work as an event horse. I’d like the two goals to not be mutually exclusive.
FWIW, the upright foot also has a contracted heel, and the right foot did, but recently has been looking much better. He spent three months without the pads and survived, but when we saw on the x-ray that his soles were just as thin as four years ago, we repoured him last week.
Thoughts? Ideas? My treating professionals are a bit at a loss because the “traditional” things you do to help horses that may be Navicular they don’t think are applicable to my horse.
Thanks,
Libby (whose two horses are paying for the vet’s kid’s college education and the farrier’s new tractor )
The Old Fat Man has spoken…
Libby-question for you…and trust me I won’t even TRY to offer advice on this one-just curious.
You mention he is not right immediately after shoeing-on both front feet, the higher one only, or the lower one only.
Also if the higher foot actually appears broken forward in the xrays, then that is two points for a heel that is too high( visual high heel +xray confirming)…why would the farrier then not be inclined to lower it?
You mention he is 52deg on that foot-did previous xrays show this number to align him properly or is this the farriers idea of the correct number?
