Navicular--is it the kiss of death? Help!!!

[cyberbay]

To answer SLB–no, I didn’t witness the foaling, and was told by the owner (complicated; I don’t own the horse but have been his ‘person’ on all levels for several years now) that that was how he came out. That was sort of the end of the discussion about his foot at that time. I hooked back up with the horse about 5 years later.

To answer Lookout – the point of my original query was to discover if anything existed out there in the world of navicular recovery that both ameliorated/improved/cured the condition while the horse could remain in work. It was an attempt to seek information on the latest, the greatest, and the off-label. As I’d said earlier, taking him off-line to see if some approaches work is a snap–I was trying to seek improvement while keeping him in work.

Is that an Ok question by you?

There are a number of reasons why this horse should stay in work, reasons that are known to me, the horse, and the other people who care about him and know him best.

Plenty of posts here have been written in a way that invite further discussion and don’t look to police people for crimes that aren’t being committed. A suggestion: if you find you are inferring things in a post, maybe seeking clarification would be a productive first thing to do.

Remember, the horse is sound. Have I finished the search for a better well-being? No (obviously, since I’m staying up late on this board). Are there definitive-for-all-horses ways to treat a NS horse? No. Has this been the most visited and weighed-in thread on COTH’s Horse Care board in recent weeks? Yes.

[slb]

Here is a link to a paper that contains info like LMH is refering to.
http://www.horse-canada.com/html/articles/HMfootphys03.99.htm

[LMH]

OH I forgot to add one question-Tom you mentioned that varying a hoof angle in a light horse by 2-3 degrees will not affect the balance and alignment as a whole…again, to clarify…by light are you refering to TB,QH, and WB type horses-would the same then not be true of draft crosses? By your statement, I would think no.

Also is this information verified or just your conclusions based on years of practice? Not agreeing or disagreeing…in my very green exposure to hoof care, I am not familiar with this idea and am interested in how you arrived at your conclusion.

[LMH]

Thank you Tom for your reply…if you could just clarify one or two points for me…

If you change his toe length, wouldn’t that change his hoof angle? If so how can each still be considered balanced and aligned with different angles? ( I am assuming you are shortening the toe by backing it up, as opposed to shortening the foot overall from the bottom, please correct me if that assumption is wrong).

Wouldn’t leaving the toe longer, making him work harder to turn his foot over lead to other complications-perhaps in the tendons or ligaments? If so how can this still be considered professional?

Also, before the attacks come in a less magnolia, honey and sugar response, could you explain your position that dressage horses do not use themselves…would you say this is true even at upper level?

Do you really prefer dressage horse to go barefoot behind or now are you just trying the charm method and throwing a small but appreciated bone to the barefooters?

[Tom_Stovall_CJF1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
For those who are under the impression that the deep digital flexor tendon does not use the navicular bone as a fulcrum or anyone who thinks whacking off the heels of a horse with normal angulation does not place the navicular bone in greater compression, I offer a simple little quiz:

After the heel of a club foot (i.e., angle of the dorsal surface of loaded P3 greater than 60º) is cut down as far as possible without causing a leak, does the heel always touch the ground on loading? If not, why not?
[\QUOTE]

Assuming a level, hard surface, the heel will often not touch the ground in this scenario because the DDFT is inelastic. Since the DDFT uses the sesamoids as fulcrums, these structures are in obvious compression upon loading and the horse will often exhibit a pain response. This can usually be immediately alleviated by elevating the heel and is sometimes used as an illustration of the role of DDFT compression in navicular syndrome.

[QUOTE]
What happens to the heel of a clubfooted horse when the subcarpal (inferior check) ligament is cut?
[\QUOTE]

Usually, not always, the heel lowers on loading because the subcarpal ligament’s function is to
prevent overflexion of the flexor muscles. The ligament is part of the horse’s “check” apparatus.

[QUOTE]
Do tendons stretch?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tendons don’t stretch. Ever. They are most often described in the literature as being “inelastic.”

For folks with an interest in the technical aspects of DDFT compression of the navicular bone and its role in navicular syndrome, I suggest the following:

Doug Butler, PhD, FWCF, “Principles of Horseshoeing” (any edition)

David Ramey, DVM, “Navicular Syndrome Explained”

[Simkie]

Hey Stovall! Good to see you here

[Tom_Stovall_CJF1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
Aren’t you the scholar who wrote, <span class=“ev_code_RED”>“There is no pressure on the navicular bone from the DDFT. In fact the more weight the horse applies to the foot the further the DDFT is pushed away from the bone…”</span>?

Given this demonstration of your vast knowledge of equid anatomy, I apparently didn’t fare too well against your willful ignorance and intellectual intransigence. On the off chance that you might consider trading your ignorance for knowledge, you might consider looking up the etiology of navicular syndrome in any college level textbook. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that is correct and that is what happens. Have you ever tried it to see for yourself what happens? Or failing that, seen it demonstrated on the Pollitt video? Given the lack of knowledge of the etiology of navicular in a college level textbook, as well as the failure rate of the palliative attempts, that is not what I would point to as the source of accurate anatomical information. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I see your problem relative to your mistaken ideas of equid anatomy and physiology: It appears your views are the result of videos and/or the dissection of a foot, not the entire leg.

Please understand that if the DDFT is <span class=“ev_code_RED”>not</span>connected the flexor muscles, then it will not place the proximal sesamoids or the distal sesamoid in compression when the joint is flexed; however, in a living horse, absent some catastrophic event, when the flexor muscles are flexed, the DDFT places the sesamoids in compression.

While you may find classroom veterinary texts of most modern veterinary schools to be a poor source of information relative to the etiology of the various pathologies that comprise navicular syndrome, I find them, and the annotations thereto, to be infinitely superior to the observations of few individuals. What’s good enough for a vet student is certainly good enough for me.

That said, if you feel the classroom texts are inadequate, perhaps you may find these observations useful:

2001 Wilson A.M. McGuigan M.P. Fouracre L. & MacMahon L. The force and contact stress on the navicular bone during trot locomotion in sound
horses and horses with Navicular disease. Equine Veterinary Journal, 33,159-165.

1999 Wilson, A.M., McGuigan,M.P., & Pardoe, C.H. The use of corrective shoeing to reduce compression of the distal sesamoid by the deep digital flexor tendon in the horse. Proceedings International Society of Biomechanics Conference.

1999 Wilson A.M. McGuigan M.P. & Pardoe C.H. The use of eggbar shoes to reduce the compressive load exerted on the navicular bone by the deep
digital flexor tendon. Proceedings British Equine Veterinary Association.

[LMH]

Tom did you get tired of playing with me? I thought I had some good questions for you

I am also a little fuzzy on a point-if someone pulls a bar shoe off your horse, his performance will suffer…so in essence, the bar shoe is just masking the pain isn’t it?

A short term “fix” to allow horses to show, compete.

However, what IF the “newer” methods of treating “N” pain offered pain free performance without the fix—but it took longer…have you considered that option?

I guess I am just curious why you reject the idea of lowering heels to assist in relieving heel pain, when there are others that are having success with this method?

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
First KC on the hoofwall thread, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whenabouts was that?

[Tom_Stovall_CJF1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Perhaps this is too simple an analogy but wasn’t the fact the earth is round an unconfirmed hypothesis at some point <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>IIRC, a hypothesis claiming the world was flat was tested and disproved. And, as I remember, some fellow named Galileo got into a bit of trouble with the inquisitors for taking the somewhat heretical stance that the earth was not the center of the universe when all the anecdotes and observations of the day claimed it was.</span>

[cyberbay]

My 10-year old horse is diagnosed with navicular. He’s shown signs, which we’ve been now managing actively for more than a year, for 2+ years. The management was bar shoes with degree pads, and isox. It worked great.

Now, the symptoms have intensified starting this spring–we’ve managed to get him sound again, but the vet has intimated that this will be a touch and go condition, and that in the end, the navicular will win.

Help. Any suggestions for care, treatment, what to avoid, what to do? Is my horse just winding down to forced retirement?

As noted above, we’ve had him in bar shoes for a year+ and on isox for a year+. Recently, he was injected in the n.bursa and in the coffin joint, with the effects lasting 1 week. He is back on Adequan (shot a week, so far, with attempts at spacing the injections starting in a week or 2). I ride him on superior footing. He is turned out in a flat sand paddock.

Recently, with this bout of lameness, we approached the treatment by first removing the degree pads. He was sound for a week. In response, we went the other way, back to a 2-degree pad. After a week of walking in his new angles, we have done light trotting, and now the work is a tad more intense, with some bits of cantering. So far, so good.

But every day is all you get. No sense of confidence that tomorrow will be a good day.

So, any suggestions for care or future treatment? I’ve heard of a drug called Tigmet???, for foot ailments, and it’s in use by some vets here, but also phew! expensive…and eventual neurectomy…

Thanks for everything!

[Lookout]

Your claim that it “mechanically” addresses the source of the pain is equally as much a personal conjecture.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
<span class=“ev_code_RED”>You are obviously confused about the dynamics of palliation: A bar shoe does not interfere with the transmission of nervous impulses; instead, it mechanically addresses the source of the pain. If you wish to condemn a mechanical procedure, please do so on the basis of reality, not personal conjecture.</span>

[LMH]

I have a great article on Navicular written by Dr Bowker on Navicular pain—it is rather large to email so be sure you box can handle it.

Just let me know if you are interested.

[horse_poor]

oh my. dutch told me today when he was at the barn to read this after i quit freaking about my horse i was quite sure was dying

i shall now pop some popcorn and sit back and watch. anyone care to join me?

tom, welcome to COTH–we are a good bunch of people, for the most past–

Dutch speaks highly of you and given the fact that dutch is a miracle worker concerning my horses feet, if he says you are a good egg i must believe him. not only is he a farrier genius, or a master cobbler as my horse refers to him as, but he also feeds very well into the hysterical horse mother tye and takes full advantage of the naievity swirling about in the hysteria of the horse mom, often times feeding fabulous lines of BS to distract said hysterical horse mom.

ask dutch about holly hock and the rat that ate browns hoof

[slb]

My thoughts also LMH…
But, I learned a long time ago…and Burney Chapman notes this in his information…that in farrier (and vet) practices egos are just to big. Watching appritices come and go…one thing I learned is that after about 30 days, the cab of an F350 just gets too small for two god-like creatures to ride comfortably in!

[Lookout]

Yeah too bad no one took your bait. Like that couldn’t have all been covered in one post.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
um, so you’re answering your own questions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes’m (Yessir?). For the edification of this forum, I posted the answers to my simple little quiz. It was not my intention to embarrass or bully anyone into attempting to answer the questions, my purpose was educational.

That said, please understand that the class is not mandatory. The reader controls what he reads, not the author. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tom_Stovall_CJF1]

Originally posted by LMH:

[Forgive my screwups, I’m playing with this thing and its winning…]

Thank you Tom for your reply…if you could just clarify one or two points for me…

If you change his toe length, wouldn’t that change his hoof angle?..

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>All other things being equal, leaving a bit more toe makes the hoof angle more acute, but angulation can be changed up to three degrees in most light horses without affecting either alignment or balance. A/P balance is not a point, it’s a window.</span>

If so how can each still be considered balanced and aligned with different angles? ( I am assuming you are shortening the toe by backing it up, as opposed to shortening the foot overall from the bottom, please correct me if that assumption is wrong).

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Both scenarios presume balanced pairs.</span>

Wouldn’t leaving the toe longer, making him work harder to turn his foot over lead to other complications-perhaps in the tendons or ligaments? If so how can this still be considered professional?..

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>Shoeing horses to a subjective ideal by manipulating the levers is what professional show farriers do and quite often the difference between reds and blues. To my knowledge, the long term effects of a/p balancing at one end of the window or the other have not been studied - but hunters usually last longer than jumpers.</span>

Also, before the attacks come in a less magnolia, honey and sugar response, could you explain your position that dressage horses do not use themselves…would you say this is true even at upper level?

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>My background is primarily speed horses and cow horses; in comparison to jumpers, runners, barrel horses, big circle horses, using horses, etc., no dressage horse uses itself.</span>

Do you really prefer dressage horse to go barefoot behind or now are you just trying the charm method and throwing a small but appreciated bone to the barefooters?

<span class=“ev_code_RED”>
Quite a few years ago, I wrote, There’re only three reasons for shoeing a horse: protection, traction, or to effect a therapeutic change in way of going - all else is vanity. It was true then, it’s true now.</span>

[horse_poor]

lmh-i loff you-you need to become an international ambassador of goodwill you always keep/maintain the peace!

[LMH]

Libby I can totally relate to the obsessive lame alert

As I said, I am FAR from qualified to make any comments and wasn’t asking to make any judgments but it certainly sounds like you are doing the best you can ! How frustrating it all must be…I am sure you feel like you get a grip on one problem or one foot and the rest go pow…

That also makes perfect sense that the farrier wants “an angle” that matches him when he is aligned base on xrays when he is comfortable-then yes he would have something to shoot for.

Thank you for explaining all that to me.

[Liberty]

Welcome to the COTH boards, Mr. Stovall.

I have a question or two for you and the other hoof folks here concerning my gelding’s chronic lameness problems (possibly) due to a navicular bone cyst in his left front foot. He’s had problems off and on for years, and it wasn’t until extensive diagnostics (bone scanning) last summer that the cyst was detected.

Many remedies to try to ease his pain have been tried - bar shoes w/degree pads, NB shoes with frog pads, no shoes, shockwave treatments, etc. He has been out of work for a couple of years now (he’s a 17-yr-old QH), and I realize that there might not be much else I can do for him.

But before I accept what might be the inevitable conclusion that he will never be serviceably sound again, I keep on trying to find something that will get him most comfortable.

Here are his latest radiographs, taken July 27th:

Bone Cyst, image taken from the top:
http://users.erols.com/wec5/photos/LF_Cyst_TopShot.jpg

Bone Cyst, image taken from the bottom:
http://users.erols.com/wec5/photos/LF_Cyst_BottomShot.jpg

Left Front, image taken from the side:
http://users.erols.com/wec5/photos/LF_SideShot.jpg

Right Front (for comparison), image taken from the side:
http://users.erols.com/wec5/photos/RF_SideShot.jpg

The faint image of what looks like a shoe are “Horse Slips” rubber shoes he was wearing at the time (www.horse-slips.com). He is now currently barefoot, with closed-cell foam pads taped to his fronts (changed periodically as they wear out). The foam pads enable full ground contact over his sole, which seems to give him the most relief.

He does not block sound, and it’s thought to be because of “aberrant nerve(s)”, so the med center advised against any type of surgery.

Last week, he received a trim where his toes were backed up about a 1/4" (from the top), as per my vet’s instruction.

Opinions please - is this horse “all washed up” permanently, or is there something else I should try?

Despite the “slight hitch in his git-along”, he’s otherwise healthy, happy, and enjoys a good run in the pasture now and then. He’s turned out 24/7 as well.

Thanks for any input. Despite what the ultimate diagnosis may be, he’s got a home for life with me. I just want him to be as comfy as possible for as long as possible.