Sounds like he may be getting his tongue over the bit… Just a thought.
First off, you need to close your fingers so that he has something to take contact with on the other end of the reins. And keep your hands together.
Second, his bit in those pictures looks improperly adjusted (too loose/low in his mouth). A lot of horses will screw around with a bit that is just hanging there.
Third, young horses often prefer something with more stability. Try a drop nose bridle (with a properly adjusted bit) or something with a flash.
Fourth, he sounds bored. You, as the rider, need to keep him active, engaged, and thinking at all times. If you can’t do this… well, don’t be surprised if the horse behaves accordingly.
Fifth, how are your hands? Are you keeping him in front of the leg? A lot of “fussy bit” issues are really just rider issues. To me it seems like you’re just sort of leaving him hanging there but expecting him to understand things like contact and balance and forward. Training doesn’t work that way.
Thanks, netg. No offense taken over here! I agree, my hands are open more than they should be in that photo. It’s about the only decent photo I have of him trotting, so it’s the only one I’ve held on to at this point. 
When he stretches, it’s only for a little moment, and I am trying to encourage it and support it while still being able to quickly reconnect if he pops up - hence I tend to widen and open my hands if he asks to stretch. It may be that there is a better way! I’m very happy to have suggestions.
He works amazingly well off my seat, so any aids I give that asks him to relax over his back and neck and stay forward are coming from my seat, not my hand.
We’ve done a fair amount of in hand stuff in the bridle. We’ve done some long lining, we’ve done basic things under saddle at the halt and walk about what the bit means. We’ve done some lunging with side reins, although I hate lunging babies often. The side reins haven’t gone over well so far, regardless of what variety I try. He just pops up, runs, bucks, or ducks way back behind. I went to long lining instead, but even then at the trot he has all the same issues.
I have a trainer that I usually see every two weeks, although she’s been traveling a fair amount so we’ve been working on our own for two months. I get to see her this week, though! I’ve trained two other babies but one was a QH and the other a foundation Morgan and they were both EASY.
Thanks for the ideas, TickleFight! Other than hacking, ground poles, xrails, games … what other ideas might I employ to keep him engaged? I agree that he’s smart and probably bored. It’s one of the reasons I’m frustrated - I don’t want to keep pushing the same message, but I don’t want to move him forward until he is seeking the connection.
We were playing around with the bit adjustment, to see whether he liked it higher or lower. His mouth is so tiny (tiny lips that don’t go back far, if that makes sense), we were trying to figure out if he was uncomfortable with a higher setting. The leather bit he’s in now is supposed to sit a bit lower (one gentle wrinkle), the Myler D, on the other hand, was just set that way to see what he liked (he didn’t and, as mentioned by another person, stuck his tongue over the bit in that one). I’ve heard a lot of conflicting information on whether the bit is supposed to sit in a spot where it just gently pulls the lip back (no real wrinkle) all the way up to two wrinkles, which is what they always taught us as a kid in PC. I have no idea if there is a definite Right Way?
I did try a flash which he hated with a passion. We tried it for two rides during which I barely touched him, and he was so not interested. I didn’t move forward with trying a drop noseband after that. Is it possible that he’d react differently to a drop even though he had such a strong reaction to the flash? I honestly didn’t want to pick up the reins at all, he seemed so unhappy. Someone also suggested a kineton noseband to keep the bit off his bars.
I’ve tried 2 different french link bouchers, a peewee bit, two kk ultra (16 & 18 mm), a random korsteel french link, the low port copper inset myler D, a happy mouth (mullen), a nathe bit, a sealtex wrapped french link, a very thin sealtex wrapped mullen eggbutt (the happymouth was too thick), and the leather bit. I also put a single jointed snaffle in for a few minutes (because, who knows?) and that was unsurprisingly a big no-go.
It feels like my hands are OK, steady, etc. and when I had to come back from time off a few years ago I did get yelled at to keep them quiet! I’ve worked my behind off … I’ll ask my trainer to not be shy about that if she thinks it’s an issue again, and also hopefully to get some video of me.
And (not that this in any way negates the possibility that it’s something I’m doing!) he was much worse when I got him in April. As soon as you put the bridle on he started gnashing, until you took it off. The entire ride, walk, trot, canter, halt … didn’t matter, he was incredibly fussy. Now, it’s almost entirely confined to the trot, occasionally at the walk and canter, and never at the halt or when I’ve just tacked up or gotten off.
Rechecking saddle … added to the list along with chiro, possible dental xrays or at least another exam, video of me/long awaited lesson, two bit options, possibly a drop, and there were a couple other ideas, I think. So appreciate of all the knowledge, ideas, and opinions. I’m by no means a perfect rider and he’s the most interesting horse I’ve had the pleasure of owning, so I expect I’ll grow a lot learning from him.
The number of wrinkles depends on the horses mouth. Don’t both looking at wrinkles, look where the bit sits. It should be sitting between his teeth, so pull back his lips and look to see if it’s hitting his teeth. My one horse with a very short mouth ends up with 4-5 wrinkles. It looks uncomfortable and too tight, but that’s just because he has a short/mouth lips.
I might be way off, here…I’ve never brought a baby along but have done a fair amount of re-training on horses with bad/spotty training. Could it just be that your boy is being naughty? I think that you’ve definitely done right by assuming it’s pain, discomfort, confusion, etc first. But it sounds like you’ve covered all of those bases, and he’s still not responding positively to the bit. You mentioned that he was “sort of” backed when he was younger, and possibly had a curb. What are the odds that he had a bad experience with a green rider/trainer, and got scared/pissed because they were yanking all over his poor mouth? Your boy is smart; if he threw a fit when previous owner took up the contact, and previous owner got nervous and dropped the reins…maybe he learned that contact=ouch, and fussing=contact goes away. I don’t know you or your horse, so I’m definitely not advising to just fluster him and make the whole situation worse. But have you tried “ignoring” the fussing and focusing on FORWARD until he realizes that his fussing/tantrum gets him nowhere?
Those with more knowledge than me are welcome to correct me if you think that I’m completely off track!
please remember that a horse under about 6 years old is shedding/replacing corner incisors and 1st premolar teeth - either side of where the bit rests in the interdontal space.
Which means the horse will periodically or more often than not have some sort of trouble with his mouth/the bit.
When his mouth settles so will his contact issues, more likely than not - IF his mouth isn’t tied shut, tongue strapped down, being overly bit-swapped in hopes of a cure, etc.
YMMV, of course.
My now 8-y/o Saddlebred cross had this same problem as a baby, constant fussing! His was worst at the trot as well(and standing still), just a rythmic chomp-chomp-chomp. It honestly just took a LOT of riding in a consistent contact (like, a couple years of steady work), but he mostly grew out of it. He still does it when he’s really nervous, though. He goes best by far in a myler full cheek mullen mouth snaffle and a fig 8, needs the stability.
[QUOTE=ideayoda;7849407]
Try either a micklem bridle (with the snaps to keep the effect of the bit off the bars), or tie the bit to the flash loop (difficult to explain). Ride the horse straight on, a few circles, no lateral work and see what happens.[/QUOTE]
I just wanted to double this suggestion.
I wanted to pop in here and say thank you for starting this thread – I am going through a similar scenario with my gelding.
Your gelding looks very handsome – I love the picture of him stretching down for the bit. I will echo TickleFight, it looks like that bit is much too low for him, and if he has a low palate, having the bit sit lower on his mouth is going to cause him to fuss.
I still haven’t figured out why mine fusses, but I will also second the lunging in side reins. We did a LOT of work in the early summer with side-reins, as he never really loved the bit and I’ve tried a whole bunch of different ones. But the side reins, and working actively including over poles, have really helped him find comfort in contact with the bit, and has also allowed him to learn to accept/seek contact of the bit with an unbiased, perfect machination – I’ve found sidereins are so much more forgiving and SO much better at teaching a horse the basic principle of contact because when adjusted properly they release pressure immediately when the horse gives to the contact.
No suggestions, other than if you’re longing in side reins, please attach the line to a well-fitting cavesson, not to the bit.
My mare had a tooth extraction and was super mouth sensitive for awhile. I tried so many bits and finally we found the right one. Because her tongue is large, we went old school with an older version Sprenger 18 mm. The wide 18 mm near the rings gives a stability in the mouth while the narrower middle gives room for the tongue.
This link is just to show you the one I mean. These are not hard to find.
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/bits-for-sale-sprenger-kk-and-stubben-522360.html
The noseband is too low, when you take up contact it can easily pinch the corners of the lips. And imho the horse is too low/closed, which has somewhat the same action as well.
more leg! try lots of spiral in and out in the trot to loosen up the back. Short of dental issues, fussiness usually goes away with this work. I have a half arab who is very well trained but prone to being sensitive. I have had to really really really work on my seat and hands, A LOT.
I’m the problem, most times.
I also have to warmup very slowly and really get him ON the bit. Not sort of together, really together. I have to be very deliberate but not baby the horse, he still has to be honest.
At this age he is shedding caps and getting permanent molars. My horse had a retained cap and acted a lot like this. I had been told that all was well by the vet, and it probably was when he was checked.
My horse loved the Micklem bridle but it’s out of my price range at the moment.
I a rope halter. with Micklem bit clips to hold the bit off his bars = happy horse.
