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Nearly at my wits end ... fussy mouthed baby?

Dressage
#1

I have a four year old saddlebred gelding that I bought as my sporthorse. He was broke briefly at 3 by his previous owner. I’m not sure what they rode him in, but there was mention of a curb. (why?!)

I got him in April and he has been fussy mouthed the entire time I’ve owned him. Physically, everything has checked out fine. Teeth, neck, back, legs… he’s sound, etc.

He chews (gnashes), rolls his tongue around, gapes his mouth, twists his head. Not all of these things all the time, but some variation of them, a large percentage of the time.

He no longer does it at the walk, and usually not at the canter. Mostly at the trot. There are many moments when he doesn’t want to touch contact with a 10 ft pole at the trot. He used to fuss when standing still, as soon as you got on, but not before. Tension? Anxiety?

Riding in a halter, he’s mostly fine. We’ve tried ‘bit training’ stuff … hanging out in a bit, getting groomed wearing his bridle, eating tasty soft slurpy lunches with the bit … none of it has done much to help him relax into the bit.

After confirming that it wasn’t any big physical thing, I’ve tried a dozen different bits on him (some not for more than part of a ride, if it was clear they weren’t going to work), with the ultimate goal being something that was gentle on his soft, low palate, and thick tongue. He’s in a leather bit now, and it seems to be the best of the options for comfort, but it hasn’t stopped the fussiness beyond the walk and halt.

Ideas? Do other people have four year olds like this??

He’s such a young, young four. I know they’re all different, but it’s been 6 months of fuss, fuss, fuss … He’s got a bit of a sulky attitude, though that has gotten quite a bit better since I bought him. Part of me thinks he just needs to grow up more. But I don’t want to mess him up if there is some other way I could be addressing it.

I feel like I ought to qualify this by saying that we don’t do much right now. I can’t really, not correctly. We walk, a lot. We trot and try to go for long, low, soft (he’s a saddlebred, after all). We canter straight lines. We do leg yields and turns on the forehand and sometimes haunches. We ride big curves and go for smooth transitions as much as possible. I’m not asking for any kind of serious work. I don’t hold on his mouth, or pull, yank, see saw, etc.

I just try to offer a steady consistent and very soft contact as much as possible.

#2

I would try two things: one lunging him with side reins. When lunging don’t just stay on one 20m circle, work up and down the entire arena letting him find his balance and seeking the bit.

I realize you have tried a ton of bits, but I really think bits are like shoes. It can take even more attempts. I love the neue schule verbendend (sp?) bit. I would normally not have spent the money on such a bit, but we had one in the barn on loan and a bunch of us tried it. Made a huge difference for at least two horses in the barn (my mare being one of them).

#3

Have you had him looked at by a good chiropractor, massage therapist or Osteopath? He might have a TMJ type issue which makes contact and holding the bit uncomfortable for him.

#4

Thank you both. He’s had a masseuse out (and a vet, farrier, and dentist, of course). I finally got a recommendation for a good chiropractor last week, so I will be giving that a go. I hadn’t considered TMJ, that would be an issue that would make sense.

And if I have to spend another $100 for a bit that makes him happy, I’d do it! That’s a new brand for me, I’ll have to look into it some more.

#5

Thank you both. He’s had a masseuse out (and a vet, farrier, and dentist, of course). I finally got a recommendation for a good chiropractor last week, so I will be giving that a go. I hadn’t considered TMJ, that would be an issue that would make sense.

And if I have to spend another $100 for a bit that makes him happy, I’d do it! That’s a new brand for me, I’ll have to look into it some more.

#6

I went through similar dramatics with my morgan. After 2 dozen bits, he finally expressed love for an arched mullen mouth with boucher cheek, a Glory bit in particular. The hanging cheek keeps him from needing to pick it up and play with it, and the arched mullen mouth fit comfortably and has nothing noisy or rattly to distract him.

His second favorite bit was - by contrast - a boucher cheek waterford. He loved wearing that bit, but the feel is so dramatic there was no asking him to seek contact of any kind.

#7

I’m guessing you’ve tried this, but have you adjusted the bit up and down to see where he likes it? I’ve got one not fussy mouthed horse who won’t leave the bit alone if he thinks it’s too low. He likes 4-5 wrinkles, although I think it looks uncomfortable.

#8

He sounds a lot like my guy, who is half-saddlebred. I’ve had my gelding since he was 6 months, and started him under saddle when he was 4. He’s taken a long time to mature, to the point where I didn’t feel like I could do much with him until he was 6–the mental stability just wasn’t there. He’s waaaaay too smart, which caused lots of anxiety that manifested in rushing, curling, teeth grinding, and bucking. Now he’s 7 and has shown successfully at first level. Next year I want to get my bronze with him. He’s really come into his own over the past year. I can ask him hard questions and instead of getting flustered and acting out, he tries to figure them out. But it’s time and a LOT of walk work and long-low-slow work. Lunging in side reins and riding in a neck stretcher helped too.

So you may be on to something with the feeling that he just needs to grow up more.

#9

Re: spending a lot of money on bits. Many places let you borrow/rent before you buy. Some places do that for the HS bits, and many places do it for the Mylers as well (you can also contact Myler directly for suggestions on what to try if you explain your issues).

#10

Try either a micklem bridle (with the snaps to keep the effect of the bit off the bars), or tie the bit to the flash loop (difficult to explain). Ride the horse straight on, a few circles, no lateral work and see what happens.

#11

My Arab was like that until he was nearly 5. He just kinda grew up one day and quit it. In the mean time I just picked the bit he fussed with the least (JP Korsteel oval mouth eggbutt) and ignored it.

#12

Thanks all. Especially the reassurance that there are other horses out there like him. I get discouraged when I hear about everyone’s four year olds going around at Training Level reliably and how well they’re working, etc. As in, what am I doing wrong with him? But I also know that Saddlebreds just take forever to grow up, mentally and physically.

ideayoda - I have seen folks tie the bit up to the flash, I’ll try that - I do think part of it has to do with the pressure of the bit on the bars. I have no idea how much of his issues have to do with being ridden in a curb at 3, but I can’t imagine it was a helpful experience in any way.

#13

Is he quiet enough that you can try riding on the buckle and just letting him hold the bit himself? That way he can get used to it without any additional pressure from the rider?

Just thought of this because my guy was very fussy when first started in a double, and he needed a few rides just to carry it in his mouth before he’d relax into it. And that’s with no bad experiences and many years of good training.

#14

Oh, I feel your pain…my saddlebred went through the same things. I now have a wonderful collection of various bits. Some things that worked temporarily- sometimes for a month or 6 months and then it would start again… Latex bit wrap, he actually went quite well in a KKUltra wrapped.
also a fat cheap $20 rubber single joint snaffle. This was pretty good for a while. Happy mouth double jointed small diameter…ok til he started to chew and grind and ruined them cause they’re plastic.
KK thin double jointed bridoon, worked for a while.

Make sure your dentist is making a good bit seat on the lower incisors or canines (??).

Good Luck and let us know if you find the perfect bit.

#15

Has he had dental xrays? I just pulled a tooth splinter from my mares mouth that popped out her gum - vet said it was probably buried there for 2-3 years and has been causing her hatred of the bit ever since. Would never have known unless we did an Xray. Luckily, it came to surface finally.

#16

Have you tried turning him out with a bit on…sometimes wearing a bit and having to munch through meals and carrying it can tame those unquiet mouths. I use an old headstall and no cavesson…over the years, have found a few young ones I’ve started under saddle that were like that.

#17

Hmm, no xrays yet, just exams and regular floating, wolf teeth, etc. That might be something worth looking into as well.

He’s very quiet on a loose rein. I can often trot on the buckle without too much issue. Not always, but it is better. We do a lot of that stuff. Seems like no matter how many days we spend on the buckle, as soon as I pick up the reins again it’s fuss, fuss, fuss. He might just need to spend the rest of this year mostly on the buckle and only small moments of offering contact.

I haven’t turned him out with a bit in, I guess I’d be worried about him being stupid … there is a pasture open at the farm where I might be able to put him out on his own in an old headstall for the day.

I’m making a list, this is very helpful! If he just needs to grow up, by the time I pursue addition potential physical issues, try a few new bits, and let him hang out for a while, he’ll have figured it out himself. :wink:

The beast:

Quiet at the halt

Looking handsome

One of our better days

#18

Hopefully it’s not something like that - but the vet said these are things you would never think to look into until you saw something. For me, the tooth splinter was from a wolf tooth that either broke off during extraction or a price fell out and then a piece was left and it healed over.

My horse would never settle in the bridle…ever. Her past owner sold her for this specific reason. Worth a look, I know my girl is feeling 100x better already, she just had it pulled last week. It just started showing 2 weeks ago…it grew out where the bit spot was.

#19

What are you doing to educate him about what a bit means and how to respond to it? I highly suspect the bit choice isn’t the problem, because so often it isn’t the problem. I haven’t seen you ride, so it is no judgment of you or your ability.

How are you getting his head down, if not with your hands, given your post implies he’s naturally high headed? Any positioning of the head of a horse who isn’t accepting or even really understanding the bit will make it harder for them. Have you taught a youngster from the start before? Do you have a professional watching and being very critical to help you learn your own part in the problems? Open fingers don’t provide the horse anything it can trust, and I see you have open fingers in the riding pic… How can the horse be stable if you aren’t?

There’s also the possibility he simply plays with the bit out of boredom. My mare (also 4) chomps away for anything easy. She’s just starting to get the idea of thrust from behind, and when she’s working her mouth is very quiet. As soon as we go into a walk if it’s not marching enough, the mouth starts. Canter has never been a mouth problem because it’s her best gait - so her mouth is quiet and her ears helicopter each stride. :slight_smile: But walk/trot her mouth was constantly busy, and I truly believe she was just bored plus didn’t quite get it. She has also taught me I had better close my formerly breed show open fingers or she’ll feel insecure and irritated. :slight_smile:

#20

In the early years of getting Mac started I had the same problem so I understand your frustration. Head was going every which way and was rarely steady. The bits he liked best were the Nathe bit and a Myler comfort snaffle, which we still use. I also got him the Micklem bridle which seemed to help.

He always has had regular dental work, bodywork as needed, has great feet, saddle fitting, etc. Recently I was trying new saddles and did a back-to-back test of the saddle I had been riding him in and a new saddle. The difference was very obvious. While he tolerated the old saddle (had tried many saddles on with a fitter, had it flocked for him, etc.), with the new saddle he was much more quiet. And now that I bought the new saddle, I’m amazed at how easily he goes on the bit because he’s comfortable.

He’s never palpated as back sore, he never tried to buck me off (well once he did buck me off but that was due to something else), but he was generally fussy in the bridle and my gut is now telling me it was saddle fit.

So that’s a long story to say you might want to consider that also!

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