I know exactly what your talking about devildog, my mare is the same way!!
I don’t advocate the use of draw reins unless you’re a good enough rider to use them properly (used wrongly, they can develop the wrong muscles, just generally wreak havoc in places you’d prefer there not be any, etc.). If used correctly, however, they can be great - for example, my brother uses them to flat his very difficult mare, and they’ve done wonders with helping to supple her. I generally prefer things like the German martingale, which I actually used on Caiman for a while myself not too long ago, because they only act when the horse’s head reaches a certain degree - if he’s being good and remaining at the set you want, there’s no effect. Basically, I haven’t got a problem with training aids, so long as you know how to use them and don’t have to RELY on them in order to get a decent performance out of your horse.
Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com
The only “gadget” I’ve ever used on my horse is a running martingale. We don’t use it at home or clinics, but I put it on him at shows “just in case.” It’s there if I need it, and not bothersome if I don’t.
While every piece of equipment has it’s advantages, the use of anything beyond a snaffle, on a regular basis or for an extended period of time, is incorrect and lazy. If the rider needs something (such as a standing martingale) to produce a good ride, they’re over-mounted and need to go back and learn the basics. If the horse needs it, either he’s been pushed too far too fast, or he’s recieved incorrect or lazy training. In both instances, the simple solution is to slow down training, go back and fill in gaps, and progress using patience and a tactful ride. JMHO
The reason I use it on the lunge line is this… My mare goes around with her head in the clouds on the lunge line if I don’t. When riding, I get my butt in gear and use my legs to drive her head down. And I was not allowed to lunge without my instructer there for a LONG time before he told me I could do it on my own. However, I am not allowed to adjust it in any way, because any looser and she would trip, and he doesn’t want it any tighter. And she only lunges for 20 mins now, and we worked up to that slowly.
I’m soooo very proud of you! You’ve come a long way! 
DD, I agree with your point of not letting them develop the “upside down” muscles. And yes when you are aboard you can work to develop them from energy from behind.
That was exactly why I cringed, and abandoned those purist dressagey roots and went to draw reins on my 3 yr TB. I NEVER camped on the reins, and used them to help develop the topline that he needed to carry himself without the upside down battle. But I didn’t want to have to undo a bunch of poor form in the process.
Reality is not every one on this planet is as talented as the next person. That is why we are given tools and the intellectualism to know how and when and most importantly WHY to use them. And when it is time to leave them in the tackroom.
DMK- wow, you are observant. Actually it is sort of funny because I started riding in a place where there were gadgets everywhere, then I became very anti-gadget. Now I am in the middle. But why couldn’t I have said it so simply the frist time?
What’s frightening is that this means people are actually reading my posts… Who knew?
I am actually not opposed to some of the various devices out there, but I do think way too many people use them that do not understand the difference between a horse who puts his head down and is strung out with a horse that drives from behind, lifts his rib cage and who’s head is set because he is fully engaged…
That being said, I have routinely seen a lot worse things done to horses, so I don’t sweat it too much
Personally, I have a set of draw reins and a yoke, which I prefer to off the side or between the legs (actually had my horse trip once and come up between the draw reins - that was the end of the “between the legs” method for me!) and a set of balancing side reins which I like quite a bit.
The neck stretchy thing was quite popular with the western pleasure crowd for years (and I assume it still is) - next youngster I get, I may play around with it on the lunge to see if it helps teach them to start the “long and low” process.
My only real pet peeves? Too tight anything! Any artificial aid should be used to reinforce the “asking” not to do the “telling”!!
And certain devices are not for use when riding (for rider safety) - if the rider’s hands cannot release it (draw reins, german martingales), it is for lunging (side reins, chambons).
…is draw reins. He used ONLY draw reins no other reins and taught the command things. On all his horses that are already trained, he just uses them once or twice a month to refresh comands. And, that must be doing something right, because all his horses keep really nice headsets. Maybe too down , but i am sure that getting him to lift his head up would be easier than putting it down. I am prob not making any since, so i will quite.
I don’t have “one” anything, gadget-wise, that gets used on all of our horses, because they’re all individuals. Some never get anything other than a loose running martingale when they’re first being broke out. But, with WB’s, you can get a lot of babies with real uphill builds/high neck sets. To show them they can stretch down and use their backs I do lunge in a chambon occasionally. Then, while hacking, I work on reminding them to go the same way without the chambon.
So here’s my 2cents: Artificial devices for setting heads/creating frames are aids; they aren’t cure-alls on their own and are no substitute for lots of schooling on the flat.
I’m not attacking, you, the horse or it’s riders Cindy. But just because a horse and it’s riders have a successful show record doesn’t mean they do everything perfectly. I still find it hard to believe than any horse, from the first time in the saddle, is just uncontrollable without gadgetry even though someone took a lot of time and patience with it. That just doesn’t make sense.
I can understand,though, buying a horse that has to go in ‘gadgets’ already and just going along with that because it’s probably easier on the horse (and you!) than trying to go back and retrain him to go in a snaffle. I think it can be done, but of course why would you want to? If he’s comfortable and rideable in the more severe bit etc. than it is probably best to just leave it that way. But I still stand by the old ‘if every horse was brought up and trained well there would be no need for such devices.’ 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And if my decisions are made against the horse’s best interest, what sort of horseperson am I? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not a very good one… I just tend to think that it’s a bit of a disservice to all th ereally accomplished horse people who have been known to use an artificial aid to infer/say/whatever that in every instance, with every horse and any artificial aid that it would be against the horse’s best interest.
I guess if we are going down that road, let’s toss off all the tack and go au natural, or just stop riding them altogether.
Guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I understand completely, Mad - I have seen people abuse and misuse artificial aids. I just want to take them aside and try to make them understand how to do it right. But I have also had the opportunity to see a lot of really good riders make/school really well trained horses, and after a while you come to accept that training a horse is more art than science, and you need to be flexible to see your way to the end results.
Devildog - in your case, I think you would really enjoy watching some Buck Brannam videos on lunging your horse. I agree a chambon is helping her in the sense that “bad steps lead to more bad steps” or, everytime your horse uses wrong muscles, that just delays the point in which all her correct muscles are fully developed and she can fully use herself.
But… it sounds like a separate issue you need to deal with on the lunge line is the fact that she is not paying you any attention. Buck has some excellent methods to teach a horse to want to focus on the you, and always be aware of you. Once she is more focused on you than her enviroment, she will bring her head more in to the circle and keep her eye and ear on you. At this point you will be able to really ask her to slow her feet down and drive from behind - creating that long and low frame that is teh key to starting any good horse.
If you can’t get a hold of any of Buck’s tapes to rent/buy, John Lyons’ Round Pen Reasoning is also good (but I think Buck is better).
I have nothing against things like that, again, as long as they’re used properly. Dunn went in draw reins almost every time we did ring work for a good 2 months, he was a jerk about life, and the draws meant that I could comfortably school him. I haven’t touched them in ages, and Dunn probably won’t wear them again unless he reverts back to bad habits.
What exactly does a German martingale do?? I’ve known people who have used them successfully, but have never actually come into contact with one myself.
But Carrot…Your other trainer is a QH trainer. QH circuit wants their heads WAYYYYY lower than h/j circuits.
Training devices (gadgets) have a place and a time and can be good or bad depending on who is using them and how (and how often). They are unfortunately something that can be a very useful tool that gets often abused. At one point I hated draw reins because I had never seen them used for any other purpose than to shove the horses nose to its chest. Then I used them correctly with my own horse and found that they actually helped. Once I felt that she had gotten the idea, I stopped using them (used for perhaps 15 minutes a day for 4 or 5 days). They did help. And I recently saw a horse make a break through in a chambon- which I know many people hate. But it seemed appropriate at the time and the horse learned something in a nice way, which is all that matters. To echo what someone else said, I have seen lots of horrible things, and the use of these sorts of devices is only sometimes on of them- and in proper use it certainly doesn’t seem wrong. Of course they are no replacement for good training.
can someone tell me what a neck-stretchy is?
A neck stretchy is a bungie-type cord that runs from girth through bit over head through bit on otherside back to girth. It is elastic and therfor encourages a long neck and head down with out forcing it.
I ride in a standing w/ loose ring at home (at all times.) At horseshows I have a loose ring lifter and standing (I take it off at the last possible moment before the hack or I get off after I take it off and get back on right before they go in the ring.) While my horse was in Ocala for 2 weeks without me, but with my trainer he improved dramitacly, he was getting his lead changes and going around courses without freaking himself out. Mind you his bit did get changed quite a few times, and we are constantly changing his show bit, but I am sure he was never ridden in any “gadget” other then a standing. Not to mention when I bought him, the horse HATED loose rings now he goes quitely, turns and stops with just a loose ring. A little professional one on one time seems to have changed him alot!
R&R
I agree that you shouldn’t use draw reins, unless you REALLY know what you’re doing. You can get the horse leaning on them, and as said before, developing the wrong muscles (I’ve seen this many times). As for a chambons, I really like them. They only come into affect when the horse puts it’s head too high (unlike draw reins) and they really encourage the horse to use it’s back and extend it’s stride witout going faster. I lunged my horse in one for two months 4-5 days/week (broke my foot) a while back and ahe was a totally different horse when I started to ride her again.
