Need bit suggestions for a quirky old horse....

[RegentLion]

I know… Another “what bit?” question.

What I need: two things-- need not be the same.

1. a “hunter legal” bit to participate in local hunter shows. He’s not a hunter but it will be fun and help me with show nerves and maybe we could have a shot at an EQ class or something. Show bill suggests a “snaffle or pelham.”

2. An XC bit he doesn’t hate.

He’s currently ridden in dressage in a relatively thin French link. He has a narrow/small mouth and seems uncomfortable in a fat bit. He’s getting much better at his connection in the dressage and we are both happy with this bit.

He he came to me (prelim washout) in a happy mouth snaffle 2 ring elevator pessoa (what is the technical term?) bit ridden on the bottom ring for jumping or the snaffle ring for jumping or flat inside. He also came to me in a running martingale which I continued to use.

I had lots of head flipping/connection problems so at a trainers suggestion went to a nathe 2 ring. The mouthpiece is the Mullen type dog bone. He doesn’t really seem to like this better. I suspect the leverage action is more as the ring is much bigger. Still running martingale.

I evented him in both bits and still had connection/head flipping issues.

He then had a long break while I had kids. I’m riding again and my position and stability of my hand are much better. I have to be very perfect as he’s busy in the mouth— so he’s busy, my hands move, he gets more busy etc. On the flat that’s largely corrected but over fences I have several problems:

He lands and “dives” after fences. Pulling me down-- I’m working on this with both of us. But he’s 18 so I really don’t want to pound on him more than necessary. I’m realistically looking for a bit to help fill some of his training holes. Not popular and not what I’d do if he was younger but there it is. Still working on him and me but trying to be realistic. He jumps best around the 2-9 to 3-3 mark and is a pain to the littler stuff.

He he also nose flips to fences and can get strong. When galloping he leans down into a snaffle and that’s uncomfortable and unpleasant to ride but he’s still rideable at the gallop–wouldn’t want to try to add fences.

I think he hates his bits because of a weird quirk he has. When I got him he’d do a weird head flick/twist, often accompanied by striking out with a front hoof-- picture two horses meeting-sniffing noses and then squealing-striking. This would happen at all 3 gaits usually only in an arena and in an elevator.

Previous owner also had this problem and her vet diagnosed it as allergies. With me he did it in all seasons. Both she and I had him checked over thoroughly-- her in trying to find a reason for his reluctance to go XC at Prelim, me in my PPE.

Anyway, bringing him back to work he didn’t do the twist/strike at all in his dressage bit or on the trail the few times we were out. However as soon as I rode him in the indoor for a jump school- twist/strike. He was clearly unhappy. He jumped fine but… I want him to be happy and comfortable.

He has been checked by a vet, moving sound and awesome, UTD on teeth etc.

So I’m thinking to try a pelham, but I don’t know what kibd of mouthpiece or shanks to try. I’m a bit concerned about the curb chain and I assume I’ll need a regular noseband? He’s currently in a figure 8. For hunters I won’t use a standing martingale because I hate them. ;-). So I assume the flip is here to stay. I would use two reins.

I don’t mind trying several bits.
Any thoughts or suggestions?

[Highflyer]

I would start with a mullenmouth pelham. You’ll need a regular noseband for hunters anyway.

For the horse I had with similar issues, the cure turned out to be letting go of his mouth and riding him really forward to the fences, at which point he corrected himself and stopped dragging me. This was after trying pretty much every bit in a three state area. He ended up in a Waterford and went really well.

[RegentLion]

Thanks. Can I do something to soften the chain? Can you tell me about a Tom Thumb pelham vs regular?

Totally forgot got hunters need a plain noseband. Duh.

Hes a “gunner” to the fence. Usually he is a “steady, whoa” ride. He’s not especially draggy or rude. I’ll attach some videos from pre-vacation as I was getting to know him. I will try to leg forward to the fence.

Mostly it’s the land/lean/drag me down post fence (with a plain snaffle) and the leaning at the gallop in a plain snaffle that bother me.

[RegentLion]

Us getting to know each other. First XC lesson and first event, where he jumped me loose on the first jump and I proceeded to cling to him like a monkey without doing much else other than praying.

I have gotten much better at organizing/settling/being more assertive. Kinda have our crap together now that he’s old and I’m sadder with 3 kids. Go figure. Sadly no recent videos.

event-stadium.
http://youtu.be/QQuDhBcCiv4

xc clip 1
http://youtu.be/wAiwmQAi080

xc clip 2
http://youtu.be/W53N6yZdXXI

[Highflyer]

Tom thumb just means it has shorter shanks-- the shorter the shanks, the less severe the bit. Most of the modern ones I’ve seen have been on the shorter side-- my mom has some from the 1950s-60s with 6 inch shanks. You can wrap the chain with Sealtex or vetwrap, or they make rubber/foam/gel protectors for them. As long as they are flat and correctly adjusted, though, they really aren’t that harsh (as long as you aren’t pulling on the reins really hard, of course).

[fordtraktor]

If he is diving after the jumps I would have his hocks and SI checked. That is a classic sign. When my jumper started diving it was definitely a sign he was sore, and he was always super eager to the fence and would not have dreamed of stopping. But he was still sore.

For the hunters you can do a french link D or a soft rubber mullen Pelham. If he acts like the rubber Pelham is too much try a jointed rubber Pelham. They are actually milder and BFNE will correctly tell you as she has in other threads they are less effective but sometimes that is a good thing for a horse that finds the mullen Pelham too much. I have had some horses go well in each kind. But start with the mullen.

Tom Thumb Pelham means 4" shanks, typically it is a mild Pelham. I would definitely try that for this horse. You aren’t going to need more on a horse that can be ridden in a snaffle, I would be willing to bet.

[Hilary]

What I noticed in one of the XC videos was when you came down the hill and asked him to sit more, he got fussy. So I would also recommend looking at his hocks or back - he’s jumping and eager, but somehow not comfortable. But that is just one observation from 30 seconds of 5 year old video. But if you put that together with the diving after the fences could be something to think about.

You can cover the curb chain with a rubber or leather cover, or use a leather curb strap. You can also make it so loose it doesn’t come into play unless you really haul on it. A jointed pelham is milder than a mullen b/c the joint softens the action of the curb chain.

[RegentLion]

Thanks for the replies!

His hocks were checked last month. He’s always been sound on them-flexes great etc, but X-rays show he does have arthritis in his left hock. It’s stable however and hasn’t been getting worse. Vet said no reason to inject at this time.

I believe he does have some SI problems and that’s why he wasn’t successful at Prelim. It wasn’t the height that was the issue but drops (IIRC) or trickier combinations.

He is seen regularly by a chiropractor and I’ll talk to my vet about investigating his SI joint. She did mention he was tight there and gave me some exercises. I had the vet out to check his soundness even though he has had no issues since coming back to work. I’m just paranoid.

I have a new dressage instructor and we are working on more compression/sit/collection in the canter and he’s getting very stable in the bridle.

So this is possibly a combination of my leg-hand connection being unsteady (especially in the older videos) and possibly a back issue.

Realistically I don’t see us eventing again much if at all. I’ve got 3 kids (4, 2, 1) and events are 6+ hours away. I really just want to do a lot of dressage (love!) and some jumping for fun. My friend is going to go to some hunter/dressage schooling shows and I’m going to go also and would like to do some courses with him. He still seems pretty willing, but I don’t want to push him if he’s hurting.

[cayuse]

Along with the bit issue, do you think he might possibly have photic “headshaking syndrome” compounding the problem? What makes me ask is what you said about allergies and the weird head flick you mentioned. I just thought I would mention it as the description made me think a little of my pony who has it.

[Posting_Trot]

You might try a baucher french link. Maybe not the preferred bit for the hunter ring, but you could school in it and swap out for the show.

A lot of horses that are fussy with their mouths like a baucher.

He seems a bit anxious to me going to the jumps, and I’d bet any stronger bit will just make him more anxious.

[RegentLion]

[QUOTE=cayuse;8488985]
Along with the bit issue, do you think he might possibly have photic “headshaking syndrome” compounding the problem? What makes me ask is what you said about allergies and the weird head flick you mentioned. I just thought I would mention it as the description made me think a little of my pony who has it.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know much about head shaking syndrome. It’ll happen a few times on some rides and none in others. Never at an event or on course. It’s happened inside and out in all seasons. :-/

[RegentLion]

[QUOTE=Posting Trot;8489022]
You might try a baucher french link. Maybe not the preferred bit for the hunter ring, but you could school in it and swap out for the show.

A lot of horses that are fussy with their mouths like a baucher.

He seems a bit anxious to me going to the jumps, and I’d bet any stronger bit will just make him more anxious.[/QUOTE]

I have one I can try.

I’ve never felt him as anxious to the jumps, but I won’t rule that out. Contact, particularly unstable contact does irritate him. When I got him (in the videos) I really struggled to stabilize my hand and connect w/my leg. I know I was producing a lot of the issues at that time. Unfortunately I don’t have a current video, but I’ve figured out how to keep my hand still when he fidgets and he’s really stable in the contact now. But still a bit of a head flip to the fences (fine with me), but leans when galloping in a snaffle and lands and drops his shoulder after fences.

[fordtraktor]

Boucher is a great bit, used it on my jumper. It won’t be your Hunter bit, though. They are not “traditional” enough. I mean, some people will argue they are fine but it is like showing in a loose ring. Technically OK but just marks you as different. Go D or Pelham, D if you can.

One thing you can do is school with the baucher then get a D Myler with a similar mouthpiece, and use the hooks on the top and not use the hook on the bottom, it’ll work the same. The top will be stabilized but no lift if you don’t use the bottom rein hook.

[Bogie]

I have had two horses that have low palates that make some bits uncomfortable for them. I’ve found that a PeeWee snaffle works well for them. In fact, I hunt my big draft X mare in one and she will take contact but not get too strong. It’s essentially a narrow, mullen mouth made of sweet iron. It also exerts some pressure on the sides of the jaw.

http://macsequine.com/macs-equine-pee-wee-bits

I bought my last one on eBay for $20 new in packaging so it’s not a huge investment.

[cbv]

[QUOTE=Bogie;8489757]
I have had two horses that have low palates that make some bits uncomfortable for them. I’ve found that a PeeWee snaffle works well for them. In fact, I hunt my big draft X mare in one and she will take contact but not get too strong. It’s essentially a narrow, mullen mouth made of sweet iron. It also exerts some pressure on the sides of the jaw.

http://macsequine.com/macs-equine-pee-wee-bits

I bought my last one on eBay for $20 new in packaging so it’s not a huge investment.[/QUOTE]

Intrigued by this bit. Do you need a special bridle or will it fit any regular english bridle?

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=cbv;8489924]
Intrigued by this bit. Do you need a special bridle or will it fit any regular english bridle?[/QUOTE]

It works with any regular bridle. I wrote a blog post about it when I started using it with my mare:

http://equineink.com/2014/05/26/from-my-bit-box-peewee-snaffle/

[wanderlust]

In the show jumping video, I think the horse is objecting to a rigid hand combined with a bit of a driving seat and then a BIG move over the fence by your upper body and possibly getting goosed by your leg. It’s a bit hard to see the video, but that was my impression.

Have you tried floating the reins a bit more like the hunter riders do? Your horse doesn’t need to be on the vertical and super connected from leg to hand to jump around 3’. I suspect if you can soften your hand and help him find some self-carriage, a lot of the hijinks will disappear.

I’ve had a lot of luck with a D ring with a thin, curved mouthpiece and a small Dr. Bristol plate. One of my horses, for some reason, absolutely hates the “bean” type links and will pitch a fit with his head like yours. But honestly, I don’t think your horse has allergy issues, I think he is reacting to the bit/hands/seat combo.

[Outyougo]

PeeWee can work nicely falls in to the Not “legal” category for hunters

for hunter showing try a very short shank Tom thumb pelham with out chain (or very loose)

[RegentLion]

I have to admit-- I’m very confused about Pelhams now.

Broken? Or Mullen? Do they even work without the chain? I was going to get a chain cover. Is no chain or a cover acceptable for hunters?

what about a waterford? And then do I get a D or full cheek ? (D is more traditional, but I will buck a bit of tradition for function-- besides he has a tiny Arab-ish head that would look silly in the big D I think).

[quietann]

Not speaking as an expert, but one of the reasons I stopped jumping the mare is because she was doing that “dive” after she jumped. She definitely has hock and SI issues, which are treated with regular injections, Previcox, long warm-ups, etc. but jumping proved to be just a bit too much for her. She was a very keen jumper and still gets excited just by poles on the ground!

Second piece of advice, since no one has brought it up – be sure whatever bit you use fits in his mouth. A lot of the rubber bits are quite thick and can make a horse with a crowded mouth really uncomfortable even though they are supposed to be “mild.”

I have a Stubben double-jointed short shanked Pelham for the mare, and ride her in it occasionally, though my ability, or lack thereof, to work with double reins has been an issue. She really likes it, and the curb rein gives a little extra-back-up if she starts to lean, or gets quick. The mouthpiece is very similar to what she has in her snaffles.

My understanding is that you do need the chain, but there are other options besides an actual chain. The Western folks have leather curb straps (so does SmartPak), there are covers, etc.