Need help from KWPN Gurus!

[Darden19]

Anybody have experience breeding to these guys?

Ustinov
Voltaire
Concorde
Numero Uno

… So far, listed in my order of preference. My mare has a good body type, really great front end conformation. She’s very sensitive, sharp, and flexible. She is super smart and very willing to work. She will be a dynamo little speed horse, and I don’t think I need to add much blood.

Things to improve on the mare:

1. She is fairly fine boned, needs a guy who can consistently throw more medium-build horses.

2. Her pasterns are a tad weak, so I would like to stay away from anything that will reinforce that.

3. As quick and UBER careful as she is, she is under-scoped to realistically do anything beyond 1.30m. She’s quick of the ground, open with her hind end, but doesn’t have an excellent shape in the air. (Think Romantovich Take One in a smaller, quicker package)

For those of you with experience with the above stallions, are you seeing any red flags? I’d love to hear about what they throw. Any to add would be great, too. I would like to stay in the Dutch registry, but she’s in the Oldenburg and Zangersheide books also.

[SLR]

We recently purchased a 4 yr old gelding by Ustinov. His jump is unbelievable. He’s very exhuberant about it too. Working on getting it contained. Has great movement. He is very short coupled, which doesn’t appeal to me, but the rider seems to like it. Don’t know if that comes from sire or dam. He is uncomplicated and straight forward, has a curious personality, lovely manners. He’s out of a selle francais mare.

[Krallen]

I’m far from a KWPN expert, but have a Voltaire mare and have ridden quite a few. The mother line on my mare is Selle Francais, but most of the ones I’ve ridden were from Dutch mothers. Based on my experience, I would not use him on an already careful and quick mare. Those are things he can add, and it sounds like you don’t want to fan the flame.
My Voltaire mare took a very specific ride. If the rider had errors that made her hit rails or got in her way too much, she would get very tense and rideability would decrease, causing more problems. Very good mare, just not for everyone.

Plus, for the exterior, the Voltaire’s seem to come in two types - around 16h, very quick, careful and sensitive, or 17h and the opposite. Given what you are trying to improve, I wouldn’t take the gamble on it.

I’ve also ridden a few Concordes. They were not as sensitive through the body and a little more tolerant of mistakes, but still smart and workaholics. The few I dealt with had a bit of a pony trot but super abilities to collect. I don’t know anything about their mothers though to know which side it came from.

[Darden19]

Thank you both for the insight! I might have to stockpile some Concorde and Ustinov…

[Lyra0502]

Similarly i have come across Concordes who are very careful and unforgiving. I think in the right hands they are excellent but not for amateurs at a higher level. Bear in mind this is a generalisation and only based on a couple of horses.

Have you considered Heartbreaker or Burggraaf? Still available frozen from Nijof.
Otherwise I would really not be concerned with sticking with one studbook at all.
I have 2 KWPN horses but neither sire is truly Dutch they just happen to have that passport.
Once a stallion is approved with a certain studbook you can broaden the net.
I would also look at Spartacus/Peppermill for power and strenght (Winningmood if ever available).
Balou du Rouet throws amazing technique and movement.
Kannan for scope, size and temperament. I think he would work so brilliantly with a blood mare.

[vuzarma]

Concorde

We had a nice Concorde from our Hamlet mare. I think the photos at http://newperthfarm.blogspot.ca/2012/10/charlton.html shows a good description of him.

Keswick Equine Clinic , in Va should have semen for both concorde and Voltair

[Darden19]

Spartacus DEFINITELY added to the watch list… Thank you Lyra0502!

I worried about Heartbreaker’s body type with this mare. They have some similar nuances-- slightly short neck, fine-boned, a little weak in the loin–, but he’s still such an excellent producer.

So, two more to add to the pot! Looking for comment on what everyone is seeing in Spartacus and Heartbreaker babies.

[mikali]

I do believe that the Heartbreaker semen is just that - heartbreaking!

If you look at all the posts where he is brought up, zero to beyond low conception rates are discussed… Just an FYI (but I wouldn’t use him).

[HyperionStudLLC]

[QUOTE=mikali;6680127]
I do believe that the Heartbreaker semen is just that - heartbreaking!

If you look at all the posts where he is brought up, zero to beyond low conception rates are discussed… Just an FYI (but I wouldn’t use him).[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Not good results.

I’ll throw one stallion out for consideration…Imothep.

We have used him in several types of mares. Consistently throws a strong hind end, suspension, good attitude and size. Three champion colts in his breeding career thus far and his latest was res ch in NA this year.

Food for thought.

Cheers

[sfstable]

I am a fan of Concorde. We bred a Calvados mare to him prior to importing her from Holland. Love the resulting filly, we have kept her and will be breeding her to our stallion for hopefully a stallion prospect. Then she will be my daughter’s next jumper mount. She can jump the moon

I have personally seen Concorde and really liked him in person as well. I have also seen Heartbreaker in person, tried to breed a mare via fresh semen to him 3 times and no go She got in foal first try once we switched to Verdi. As the others have said, Heartbreaker’s semen not for the faint of heart or shallow pocketbooks. But he is gorgeous

[madoy]

Have a Número Uno in my barn, FEI dressage amateur dressage horse and pretty talented and handy. Super jump in him too, though I’ve not seen him jump over 3’6. He’s a powerful guy, very round type, very muscular. Not at all hot or sensitive, but not insensitive either. Noticed there was at least one Número Uno jumping at the Olympics.

[Krallen]

Like Lyra, I was also thinking Burggraaf. Calvados would be a thought too. I’ve had mares by both and both were more of the larger framed/powerful types. I’ve seen several by Calvados though, and including my mare…I wouldn’t exactly call them pretty…more like, um, handsome.
Another idea is Capitol sons - adds the power, scope, and rideability.

[Lyra0502]

[QUOTE=Krallen;6680393]
Like Lyra, I was also thinking Burggraaf. Calvados would be a thought too. I’ve had mares by both and both were more of the larger framed/powerful types. I’ve seen several by Calvados though, and including my mare…I wouldn’t exactly call them pretty…more like, um, handsome.
Another idea is Capitol sons - adds the power, scope, and rideability.[/QUOTE]

I was also going to mention Calvados :yes:
I have one. He is big (big white face like his sire) Huge Scope, Brave, Lazy and not the most careful in the world but perfect for pro/am due to the scope and brave bits
He is out of an Ulft mare so not very blood but moves very very well.
I would think that he would work fabulously with your mare :yes:
They are a bit numb and bolshy on the ground (based on my own and 2 others) so do need some firmness.

[HyperionStudLLC]

FYI… Imothep’s Dam is by Calvados ;o)

[RyuEquestrian]

We bred to Calvados this year and produced an outstanding (albeit rather plain looking) colt out of our Ana Bella (Condios x Ekstein x Landino) mare.

We chose Calvados because of his bravery, size and power. Ana Bella, although very quick on the ground with good technique and blood requires both power and bravery, she herself brings rideability to the table so that wasn’t an issue.

We have found that Voltaires can be extraordinarily careful (even those horses not directly sired by him) and would not suggest breeding something already very careful to him for fear of creating something too careful. One of our mares, Ahsianita, by Ulysses m2s (Ekstein x Voltaire) who is very cat-like over the fences and we have stayed away from Voltaire lines as to not create something overly careful and have instead chosen to go with stallions that provide power.

Concorde has been on our short list, however we have been told that he has a tendancy to produce weak in the loin so will make sure to breed him to a mare with a strong back that is relatively short coupled.

Good luck with your search!

[Darden19]

Thank you to everyone who chimed in. You have all been a huge help! VERY glad to have Burggraaf brought to my attention for her. He and Ustinov are now in a very tight race…

Again, thank you! So looking forward to next year =)