Need legal bit suggestions

[lorilu]

New boy is very cute and doing well… (One pic is from December; the riding pics are March 25): http://s259.photobucket.com/user/lucaslphotos/library/Lutador
Background: He is 14. Once went to a dressage trainer who apparently cranked and spanked him. He rebelled. Owner/breeder finally gave him to the person from whom I bought him She rode him Californio western, big curb bit with roller, no contact, romel weighted reins, false frame. Very seat educated - contact not really needed. She did the trail challenges etc. with him.
But of course, contact is necessary unless we are trail riding.

We started in a fat three piece bit with a bean. He accepted it - but head tossing is his method of showing disapproval… and that continued even with the lightest of contact. And stopping or rebalancing was an adventure.
We moved to a pellam with similar mouthpiece and 4 reins in hopes of shutting down the head flinging. Seemed to work some.

Finally, following a suggestion, moved to a MicMar 3 piece bit. He loves it. He is beginning to accept contact throughout the ride. He is beginning to reach for the bit and open his throatlatch. He likes the weight on his tongue I guess…

However, of course, it is not legal in either WD or the traditional arena.

I realize some of it is strength. He has gained weight and put on muscle in the 4 months I have had him. He is very traditional Lusitano - high neck set, small and catty. Getting him to stretch down has been an education for both of us, but he is getting the idea…

Any suggestions as to bits to try? I would like to go in the WD direction - (and yes, I really bought him for his brain and trail sense - but I still want to have some fun in the arena!)

(Next week I am trying a small “correction” bit on the suggestion of a friend - 3 pieces, small port)

TIA,
Loretta

[csaper58]

Can you show us the MicMar 3 piece bit? I am not familiar with it.

Is one of these the mouth piece? www.mikmar.com/products-cupreon.html

Why is it illegal?

[Palm_Beach]

I think you need to go way way back to the beginning with a simple bit, and reteach the basics. It might take some time, but in the long run, you will have a better horse. With your horse, I might even consider riding in a rope halter, if you think you can. Once he knows stop/go/left/right/forequarters/haunches, then move to a very simple bit and redo it all. I hate the crank and spank, it sends such mixed messages to a horse and really tends to increase their level of anxiety. The head tossing will go away when he trusts your aids and is confident that you won’t punish him for responding correctly.

[lorilu]

Thank you Palm Beach that is what we have been doing. Remember he is 14. The bad dressage was long ago ( I think about 6 years or more) he was trail ridden after that. He is very seat trained as I said and does not really need the bit for directions, lateral work, etc etc. He does need it to get him working from his haunches as he is good at faking a frame and his conformation ( upright neck set and strongly sloped croup) makes you think he is working correctly although his back is in fact dropped. He does not like the simple snaffle. He somewhat tolerates the bean snaffle. He likes the mikmar. He is accepting contact in it. I am searching for something similar that is show legal.
Casper58, , the bit is illegal because it is not round in cross section rather it is flat/rectangular with rounded corners.

[lorilu]

Casper 58 is is the mikmar jointed Pelham on a different page of that site. I cannot share the page from my phone sorry.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=lorilu;8603990]
Thank you Palm Beach that is what we have been doing. Remember he is 14. The bad dressage was long ago ( I think about 6 years or more) he was trail ridden after that. He is very seat trained as I said and does not really need the bit for directions, lateral work, etc etc. He does need it to get him working from his haunches as he is good at faking a frame and his conformation ( upright neck set and strongly sloped croup) makes you think he is working correctly although his back is in fact dropped. He does not like the simple snaffle. He somewhat tolerates the bean snaffle. He likes the mikmar. He is accepting contact in it. I am searching for something similar that is show legal.
Casper58, , the bit is illegal because it is not round in cross section rather it is flat/rectangular with rounded corners.[/QUOTE]

I totally understand, but it seems as if the trail riding owner just ignored the root of the problem so it’s still there.

[csaper58]

Is this it? www.mikmar.com/bit-pages/Cupreon-Pelham.html

I wonder has that mouth piece been declared illegal? Perhaps the one you have is just distorted a little? I would contact the Mikmar co.

Neue Schule makes this bit. It has a flat side, it is not round in cross section. I was told it is legal, see very bottom of the page.

www.horsebitbank.com/turtle-top-flex-loose-ring-2-825.phtml

Of course pelham cheeks are not legal, but if you can gradually shift to a baucher cheek or full cheek in a similar mouth piece, that might suit him.

P.S. He is very handsome

[lorilu]

Thank you, I think so too.
It’s this bit: http://www.mikmar.com/bit-pages/pelham-bit-STRjointed.html

Yes, accepting contact is the issue. However, his reaction to a “regular” snaffle led us on a search for something he will accept. Isn’t that what one is supposed to do - find the bit the horse accepts? As I said, he does not need help turning or stopping or lateral work - it is all seat driven, and frankly going back to using to reins for this would be a step backwards in training. If you watch highly trained horses they work off the seat.

[beau159]

Just to ask, you did give us a detailed history on his riding history … but when has he last had a dental exam?

[QUOTE=lorilu;8604738]

Yes, accepting contact is the issue. However, his reaction to a “regular” snaffle led us on a search for something he will accept. Isn’t that what one is supposed to do - find the bit the horse accepts? As I said, he does not need help turning or stopping or lateral work - it is all seat driven, and frankly going back to using to reins for this would be a step backwards in training. If you watch highly trained horses they work off the seat.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know that it’s a step backward in his training. Rather, it is a HOLE that needs fixing. While I understand his response to leg/seat aids may be advanced (which is great!) but if he’s not accepting of rein contact, it needs to be addressed.

Yes, there is absolutely a component of bit searching to find one that he agrees the most with, but part of it too is that he simply needs to learn to accept anything you put in his mouth. (Key word is “accept”.) Doesn’t mean he’ll be happy in every bit, but he should be accepting of it because you asked him.

I understand he’s 14 and he’s had some bad training in the past. But I usually don’t let those things influence me too much, because you go back to the beginning anyway, and progress forward.

Truly, I’ve never used any of the Mikmar bits so I am not that familier with them.

You stated he didn’t like a “regular” snaffle. Can you post a picture of exactly what you tried?

What would he think of something like this?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61LNd5YACzL.SX522.jpg

Granted, you wouldn’t show in that as I’m assuming you have to have something with a shank for WD. But it could be an aid to use in his re-training of being accepting of contact with a bit. Something that is very simple without a lot of confusing “extras” going on. I’d literally treat him like a colt who has never had a bit in their mouth, and start from scratch. To get him accepting of bit contact without fighting it.

[csaper58]

OK…I can’t find any bit similar to what you have that is legal. The bit suggested by beau159 is very well accepted by most horses, and I think you can do western dressage with a ring bit

This is a two rein bit that will function similar to your pelham.

www.Horseloverz.com item # 200-103522 (enter just numbers in the search box)

And a dental exam is a good idea.

[aktill]

…but…curb bits aren’t “contact” bits. If you want contact, ride a snaffle.

[beau159]

[QUOTE=aktill;8605622]
…but…curb bits aren’t “contact” bits. If you want contact, ride a snaffle.[/QUOTE]

Why?

I see curb action (leverage) and I see contact.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/3/2/2/3/4/8/i/1/1/9/o/PetersS_OLYMHK08kh4799.JPG

While I wouldn’t advocate to ride in contact 100% of the time in a curb, you sure aren’t going to hurt the horse any.

Not to mention there are different levels of contact. Here I am riding my gelding with contact and a curb bit.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/2014%20Horse%20Pictures/2014-06-21Reining_zps8d2ee626.jpg

[aktill]

Yep, you sure are.

It really depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. Argumentum ad populum works for some people.

[csaper58]

Not to be a kill joy, but the O.P. rides in a pelham, not a curb. See post #8

She is looking for advice on a bit that is legal for western dressage, with a mouth piece that will be accepted by her horse.

aktill… argumentum ad verecundiam… much?

[lorilu]

Aktill, his teeth were checked by the vet at the PPE. That said, the dentist is scheduled for the barn in the near future.
That snaffle you posted is interesting. While rollers on the center link are legal, bumps are not…
To answer your other question, the snaffle we tried was a nice fat bean (not too fat for his mouth).
I understand what you are saying about a hole in his training, and I agree it is a hole. I just don’t think I need to go back to “turn and stop with the reins” to teach him acceptance.

Regarding the later discussion re: curbs and contact, this is the continuing discussion (AFAIK) within the WD world. As it stands now, contact (not draped reins) is required even in a curb, and two hands may be used on a curb. That’s the way it is. I just plan on using a snaffle if I can find one, or continuing my education as an extremely “light” contact rider.

Trying a very short shank “correction” bit tomorrow. I’ll let ya’ll know!

[lorilu]

(and adding I ride in a pellam right now because the "snaffle"position rein allows me to “pretend” he has a plain snaffle type bit, but the “curb rein” second rein provides a bit more when/if I need it. Just as a pellam is used to teach a rider to handle four reins, I am using it to teach the horse to accept and respond to a “snaffle position” rein.)

[Showbizz]

I have not read everything here - I admit that. However, this is my go-to when I’m introducing a horse to a curb (however, at that point they fully accept a snaffle):
http://www.sstack.com/western_bitscurbs_mullenlow-port/fes-bit-western-jointed-portroller-mouth/

or

http://www.sstack.com/western_bitscurbs_mullenlow-port/myler-ported-barrel-bit/

[csaper58]

It looks like USEF western dressage rules allow Hackamores, and Bitless bridles.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=csaper58;8606533]
It looks like USEF western dressage rules allow Hackamores, and Bitless bridles.[/QUOTE]

You would honestly have to not care about how a bosal functions to ride it on contact, however (same with curbs imo, but to each their own). The whole notion is why WD is still dressage in western tack.

[csaper58]

Perhaps western dressage has more focus on self-carriage than contact.

I like to believe the judges know how the various bits & no- bit options work.

I also suspect that the ‘contact’ the western judges find acceptable, when a curb or bosal is in use, is different than the contact with a snaffle.

The hackamore and/or the bitless bridle could be useful tools for a horse with a distrust of contact via the bit.