Need some advice..on the verge of giving up

[skydy]

Don’t feel like a failure. You aren’t. Riding well takes time to learn.

Rather than send the horse away, which can be expensive and doesn’t teach you how to ride him, find someone (an Eventing trainer would be good) take lessons, and have a good instructor teach you how to put yourself and your horse in the best position to learn. You will learn how to ride well and develop the strength that your horse needs to jump properly.

Eventing trainers have an all around perspective, which you seem to need at this point in time. Save your money for lessons, where you learn as well as your horse.

[winry10203]

I just checked he showed in 0.9M classes and schooled at home 3’3-3’6. Thanks for the words of encouragement! I think I’m going to go with having dressage lessons and see how it goes. I’m hoping eventually we can sort this out!

[Angela_Freda]

Another book to look for is Lessons with Lendon, which has fabulous illustration and step by step of proper basic flatwork.
I get my books inexpensively at thriftbooks.com.

[NaturallyHappy]

It’s quite possible he was not ridden well as a jumper. In my area, there are a lot of poor jumper trainers who never have a horse go correctly. They are hollow, head up, poor quality canter and the riders can’t see a distance. So…it may not all be you.

[fivestrideline]

I vote that this is likely. Horses can “school” a 3’6" fence or line, but many require actual good riding to get past .90 or 1.0 meter. It’s why the sub-1 meter jumpers are so dang scary sometimes

OP, it could be all you. It probably isn’t. Either way, you’re going to have to learn to ride him better, so why not invest in yourself AND him.

Everyone hits this wall (repeatedly) - you suddenly realize how much you don’t know and it can be disconcerting and discouraging! Try to let it be motivating instead.

Also, don’t get hung up on fast-fed social media gobbledygook (showing my age here), it’s so easy to get overwhelmed when all you see is the best of people and thinly veiled ads trying to take your money. Instead try to find good IRL help that consistently produces happy horses and effective riders.

You sound like you’re really trying to do right by your horse. Be kind to yourself, and keep working!

[paw]

And remember - if he’s used to going around with his head in the air, he’s used to not using his body correctly; he’s hollowing out. You’re going to need to start him again; get him long and low and stretching from his hind end throught his back and neck to the bit. This is going to take time.

Think about how you develop a new skill - you need to build the proper muscles in the proper way. In the beginning you get only a moment or two of the correct movement, but as you practice it becomes easier. The same is true of the horse. The only real difference is that the horse hasn’t asked you for help.

So, take your time. Work with a trainer who understands rehabbing horses who have learned the (incorrect) way that works for them. Better if you get lessons on how to do the training yourself, rather than just have someone “fix” the horse for you; if you don’t know how to do it, the horse is going to backslide without the trainer.

[skydy]

You can do it if you are willing to put in the time.

If you want to win ribbons at shows without taking the time that is really required to ride and train your horse, then you’d better be ready and able to pay someone very large sums of money to train your horse up for you and then hope that you can make that work in the ring.

Learning to ride and train your horse, under good supervision is always the best answer.
Your horse is “upside down”, he’s not a bronc that needs a feral horse starter.

Slow down and enjoy the learning process. If you can’t wait, then you will need to have a large amount of money to pay a trainer to train/ride for you before your classes, and you will have learned very little about riding your horse.

Hang in there. Don’t give up yet, unless you care only about ribbons and not about horses and the lovely interactions that you have with them.

[ParadoxFarm]

Do you have access to trails? Or do you have a large farm area you can walk? I would do a LOT of walking and letting him learn to simply relax under saddle. Walking can be an under-estimated tool in your arsenal. Trails can be beneficial because the horse is walking over things, strengthening himself, working on balance, etc. You’ll be loosening up muscles without much stress.

[Christa_P]

I’m with many others, find a good trainer and either have them ride once or twice a week and give you lessons on other days or just give you lessons and homework. This will take time, there is no getting around that. He needs to completely relearn how to use himself mentally and physically.

Another point about you getting the lessons and doing most of the training is how much YOU will learn and that will carry on by adding many tools to your training toolbox.

I agree with @ParadoxFarm, take him out and walk, preferably on trails or in fields with variable terrain. It will get him to relax, drop his head, and start using his body differently. Do this for several WEEKS or MONTHS (not days) to start rebuilding his muscles. Slowly start to pick up contact and ask for more engagement, maybe a little leg yielding, only for a few steps at first and if he starts to invert go back to getting him relaxed. This problem isn’t something that can be fixed in 30-60 days, it will take time. I would plan on stopping jumping for now and taking until at least next year to really get this fixed on the flat before reintroducing jumps and even then it will take riding him consistently correctly and not letting the habit resurface.

[merrygoround]

Carrying himself correctly can be taught. BUT, it is the result of properly done gymnastic exercises-warning, rider must work under the direction of an educated instructor, and the rider must work. It sounds as though there is a gaping hole in your riding education.

Yes the horse must be ridden forward into contact but it must be a physically strong horse, and the contact must be educated, soft, and giving.

Not a one month training project because a horse at that point would be still a long way from the fitness level you desire, but would be going back to an undereducated rider.

Better yet, you and your horse hie yourselves off to a good dressage instructor, and work together. Jumping is just a big canter stride.

[dags]

@winry10203

Wow so many great responses thanks everyone!
Just to clarify some things, I finally have a correct fitting saddle which was my step one. I also have a Bodyworker that works on him as well. I know I’m a novice rider but I just want my boy to move and use his body correctly, I’ve been trying to do it myself but it hasn’t worked. I don’t jump often… maybe once a month if that. Majority of my rides are flatwork. I’ve lost my desire to jump since I can’t move him off my legs well and I want a proper foundation. I know more than likely it’s 95% rider issue. I’m definitely wanting a dressage trainer to teach him and also myself how to correctly ride. I just feel defeated and like a failure. but I know it’s my lack of experience but still hard to not be negative on myself.

I dare say this is my first post in the dressage forum, I’ve always been too scared coming from HJ land

OP, I think you can cut yourself a ton of slack because I’m guessing this goal of “correct” everything was unattainable from the start, no matter how perfect & careful & exceptional you are or how many youtube videos you watched.

“Correct” is far too broad a goal. It should be a natural component of many other, much smaller goals, but you’re really setting yourself up for failure if your only marker of success is social media’s glossy representation of “correct”. It tends to bypass (if not completely obscure) the many small steps it took to get to “correct”. It also has a habit of vilifying less than perfect moments on the way to correct, and there will be many, many, many imperfect moments.

@winry10203

I think I’m going to go with having dressage lessons and see how it goes. I’m hoping eventually we can sort this out!

Yes to dressage lessons! But know you will not sort this out Correct is the goal we all have every day we get on. A correct circle, a correct lead change, a correct transition… all places you can fail miserably if the only goal is that your horse “goes correctly”. And once we have a horse doing those things mostly correctly, we’ll up the difficulty level with a new skill to learn, and suddenly everything will be all incorrect again. Rinse & repeat. For years lol.

Break things down into more objectifiable goals, like achieving a perfectly round circle or traveling off the rail in a straight line without letting your horse drift. Those are the kind of tools that teach you the skills that will eventually get you to “correct”. And then ask yourself if you really know what “correct” means- it’s not just that pretty outline you see in photos. It’s engagement and impulsion and swing and throughness and straightness towards an end-goal of softness. Understanding what each of those things are and how they feel is probably what’s missing in this equation, which is completely normal for where you are in your riding journey.

I also feel if someone was properly prepping you for, like, a Training Level dressage test, things would be making way more sense to you and no one would be rushing you to get him “on the bit”, so maybe also consider a fresh set of eyes for you two, too.

[joiedevie99]

No, one month of training will not fundamentally change how a horse goes in a way that you can maintain it going forward without further training or any lessons in how to improve your riding to match him. He may need to develop all new muscles, and that takes time. And most people will come along slower than their horses But, you can do it piece-by-piece, over time, for the rest of your life

[dogsbody1]

@winry10203

I’m at my wits end with my horse. He’s a show jumper and I’m pretty sure he’s never been taught to properly carry himself and I’ve been struggling for months to get him to be able too. He always rides around inverted with head high. At this point it feels like I’m stuck and I’m sure it’s also due to my lack of experience as a rider as well. I’m debating if I should look into a dressage trainer that can do training on him. I’ve never put a horse into training, so is this something that would be fixable with a trainer riding for a month? I don’t think my finances could do longer than that. Or is this a terrible idea? Would love some feedback

If you’re a dog person, maybe this analogy will resonate with you: I personally feel like getting a horse to ride with good contact is like getting a dog to walk in the heel position on a leash. A strong person with a short leash can physically hold a dog there. You can find special collars and gadgets that make it harder for a dog to pull and can help you hold your dog there. A trainer can teach you techniques to pop the leash or change directions to coax a dog to stay there. But ultimately, whether a dog is actually heeling properly is a reflection of that dog’s obedience and mental state. An untrained, nervous, distracted, hyperactive dog is going to have a very hard time walking on a loose leash, let alone heeling. And some dogs are frankly always going to be much easier and more consistent about it just because of their nature.

If the problem is that your horse doesn’t know the first thing about contact, then 30 days with a dressage trainer could make a huge difference! It’s like a dog that’s never walked on a leash before: it takes training just to convey the basic concept.

But if the problem is your horse’s mental state—which is actually the bigger and more ongoing part of the equation—you’re going to have a lot of work to do, and sending away for training won’t solve it. Instead of going straight to “heel,” maybe just see if you can work toward the horse equivalent of a “loose leash,” which IMO would be a horse stretching down on a loose rein. Do you feel like you can get that with your horse? Or is he always tense/head up under saddle?

[Jackie_Cochran]

Many decades ago my parents gave me their horse, a high headed 7/8 Arab 1/8 ASB mare who did not jump. This mare had problems, and one of these problems was going around ALL THE TIME inverted, both when someone rode her and out in the hilly pasture (she had 24-7 turnout.) When I started riding her she would invert, she would bolt for no apparent reason and when that did not discourage me she would balk. I put her in a double bridle so I would have some control over the bolting and I strapped on my POW spurs to deal with the balking.

She came to me NEEDING a standing martingale if the rider wanted any type of control.

I was determined to get her to where she did not need a martingale to get her head down when moving. I hit my library, and in “Give Your Horse a Chance” by d’Endrondy (sp?) I found a technique that WORKED.

His solution was for the rider to raise their hands until the reins were parallel with the bridle’s cheek pieces and be ready to IMMEDIATELY follow the horse’s head down keeping contact all the way down and all the way back up again.

I had nothing to lose. I was horse, land and child poor and could not afford to send the mare out to training and I could not afford good lessons. I HAD TO fix this on my own. I rode her 6 days a week for one to two hours each ride.

So I took off that standing martingale which made her other problems worse. I started off at the walk in a hilly pasture (my only riding area) with her trying to bolt and any contact with the bit made her head go UP and her head stayed up with a gaping mouth as she tried her best to run away with me.

Using my legs to drive her forward I made my reins parallel with her bridle’s cheek pieces and she dove her head down all the way to the ground, and I kept contact with the bit all the way down. Of course her head came up again, so my hands went up again, I made her reins parallel to her cheek pieces again and she moved her head down by herself, until the next time she felt irritated by simply anything.

This went on for several weeks, then she finally consented to allow very light contact with my hands.
Of course her head went rapidly UP again whenever she was irritated about anything, I raised my hands, her head went down, and I got the beginnings of true contact until the next time she inverted. ALL this time this mare was either trying to run away with me or would balk, ignoring my legs totally. I had some exciting rides.

It took several months before she willingly stopped inverting all the time on contact. After the fourth month I watched her trot in the pasture and she was still inverting in the pasture, and I knew that all my good riding would be worthless until she learned that she could go trotting around the pasture without inverting her head.

So I dug into my bits and pieces of extra tack and I make up a chambon. I lunged her in the chambon three times, and then finally she stopped inverting when moving loose in the pasture.

In a few more weeks I switched from my double bridle to a snaffle bridle, got her going well in it reaching confidently to the bit, then I introduced riding on loose reins. Occasionally she would invert, my hands went up, and her head went down. Then one magic day she did not invert at all and she never inverted again while I rode her. After that she became reliable to ride on loose reins.

Since that barn did not have a riding ring or any jumps I never jumped her.

A few decades later I started taking lessons. My riding teacher put me on one of her problem lesson horses (Arab gelding) that would invert if contact was not light and steady, or if the horse thought that anything iffy was going on around him. He jumped in the lessons, usually 2’ or less. When he inverted my hands would go up until he reached out with his head to take proper contact with the bit. This horse took only around three months before he stopped inverting when I rode him, riding only in a snaffle bit with no martingale. I was riding this horse only 30 minutes once a week.

I have used this technique on other horses too.

Good luck. You have a lot of grit to keep on working your horse. Using this technique for several months you will discover that your horse can give you the rides you dreamed of when you bought him. Keep your contact LIGHT, and always follow the horse’s mouth. Forget about collecting the horse until he reliably carries you without inverting, and ALWAYS follow the horse’s mouth with your hands.

[RhythmNCruise]

Just chiming in with the others that recommend getting good dressage lessons instead of sending the horse off for someone else to ride. The goal of having the horse traveling correctly is pretty much always the goal of basic dressage. It’s not something that is necessarily taught to the horse and boom, he’s got it. It’s always the goal, each and every day you climb into the saddle, and it’s very dependent on your particular horse. Many horses have conformation or chronic health issues or past training holes that they must overcome nearly every ride to find that “sweet spot” where they’re truly using themselves nicely and traveling in a balanced way. They may come out of the stall/pasture stiff, tense, sucked back, etc. and it takes a long 15-20 minutes of hacking at a walk on the buckle before they’re ready for trot. And that trot may be super energetic and forward OR it may be a notch above a western pleasure jog because things aren’t loosened up yet. Some horses need a lot of lateral work at the walk first, some halts and backing, etc. to kind of get the gears going. Then, once in the trot, they need to be allowed to go around in whatever frame they want until they can relax (or wake up in my horse’s case) enough to engage the hind end and stretch over their backs. Some horses need a ton of trot-walk/halt-trot transitions to get them going properly forward from behind. Some horses need to get out of the ring and go hacking around the property to achieve it. Some horses need to canter early on before they’ll give a good trot. Some horses need you to stay in a half-seat or two-point until their backs warm up.

So much goes into getting a horse to use himself correctly. It’s literally what dressage riders and those who use dressage principles as the foundation of their horse’s work do every single time they climb aboard. It’s not something that is installed by a trainer and is just there all the time. It’s a continual work in progress.

All that to say, your horse will be able to do this once you’ve learned how to help him do it. You have to learn the exercises to incorporate in your rides and the methods to ask him. You need to learn the “whys” behind what you want him to do and the “hows” to get there. That’s what dressage is. You’ll literally be learning how to train and ride your horse in a way that helps him carry himself and you more efficiently and effectively. It’s a lot of work, but it’s fun.

[Alpha_Mare]

Dear OP, there is a lot of good advice here. One thing about getting regular instruction (weekly or 2x a month, whatever) is that it will help you keep track of your progress. A lot of progress is made in tiny steps. When you add them up they make a full step up the ladder of fitness and comfort in you riding your horse. So you will have a ‘remember when’ you started capability, and periodic updates to ‘now I can’ do xyz.

Best of luck

[Djones]

1. Can your trainer show you on this horse as he is right now, today- that he knows what’s being asked and can do it if ridden better?

if the answer is yes- then you both need lessons, horse and rider, ideally with a dressage or eventing trainer.

if the answer is no- then you need a new trainer as well as lessons. Your current trainer isn’t able to do it and presently can’t effectively coach you through how to ask for it and support him.

[Pico_Banana]

Agree with others that dressage lessons are the way to go.

As others have mentioned, keep in mind that A LOT can be accomplished at the walk. Dedicate some time to working on nothing more than getting the horse truly straight (harder than it sounds) and able to move forward with a supple back, reaching down and out. Then once that is established, pick up some more contact and see if you can get the same walk. Rinse and repeat. Lateral work is also great - a simple shoulder fore or an easy leg yield (you just need a little lateral movement to get the benefit). Focus on doing everything correctly instead of swiftly. If you do that, you will be able to feel in your seat when the back lifts and then you know you’ve done it correctly. Be satisfied with baby steps. Try to do it with the least amount of ask on your part so the horse figures it out.

Also, keep your rides short as you are working on these things. Lots of short sessions are way better than one or two long ones.

There’s a saying that I really like for situations like these - the fast way is the slow way, the slow way is the fast way. Take the time at the beginning and you will see the results.

Wishing you the very best of luck.

[Angela_Freda]

Equestrian sport is one that people practice and never perfect.
It’s a lifelong endeavor.
There are no shortcuts, and in fact short cuts tend to make progress actually take longer.

@winry10203

I’ve been struggling for months to get him to be able too. He always rides around inverted with head high. At this point it feels like I’m stuck and I’m sure it’s also due to my lack of experience

Things will definitely take longer if you’re not educated yourself and are trying to diy.

Agree with everyone who suggests you both start lessons with a trainer with experience.

[Incantation]

My paint came very inverted. I found that a neck stretcher while lunging gave him the idea of stretching without weight on his back, and made it easier for him to stretch once I got on him. After a few short sessions, he started to stretch down on his own when lunged.

I agree with lessons from a dressage or eventing instructor for sure. It will take a long time for him to build the correct muscles. Along with that, my guys love it when I use a percussion massager on them. It helps keep them loose between visits from a professional.