Need suggestions for traumatized horse

[Foxtrot_s]

My horse - who has never had a hand laid against her, and is ridden with a dressage whip as an aid only - still tenses up with one when used to go over her body. I still do it, and she stands quietly, but she does tense up … so I’d consider that the end of the training if you use one.

My mare got into a very bad accident (too long to post). Suffice to say she was very terrified of everything…my vet said she would get over it, and she did, with time, repetition and then firmness. She had had the water on her ankles, up her legs etc. for ages, she had come a long way, and then we decided it was time to up the level - so we just held her by hand and my friend started the hose thing over her body. Just for a short time, she settled and that was that, now she’s the best water horse e.v.er., be it hose, lakes, rivers, jumping.

Keep us posted on this one.

[Countrywood]

If it works re a string or bag, fine, but I can tell you having owned many lead ropes of all qualities, whips etc, and handled generic carrot sticks, the parelli stick has a velvet soft rope and suede ending, which to a traumatized horse might make a difference. (I am not associated with them and could care less about making them richer by ordering one more carrot stick,) (:

[Lady_Eboshi]

Send him to a professional with full disclosure, preferably a farrier who trains on the side or a consignment dealer, before he kicks your head off or breaks your leg. Seriously doubt it’s anything related to pinfiring–if he’s a flipper, he may have an old SI fracture, a tumor, EPM or who knows what in his pelvis or spine. Doesn’t sound to me like a “training” issue at all. [I]People need to remember that often “bad” horses end up in “bad” situations FOR A REASON!
[/I]
BTW, who else are you expecting to handle this horse? Better have personal liability insurance on him, as well as make sure to disclose his “little problem” to EACH AND EVERY person who comes in contact with him. What if you had to change barns? Most BO’s don’t want to take on a horse with “flashbacks” that make ordinary handling unsafe.

BTW, if something happens to YOU, who’s expected to own this horse? Who would wind up with him? Are they willing to tranq him each and every time he needs farrier work? Tiptoe around his hind end? Is this animal SO talented, so irreplaceable, so valuable that it’s worth dealing with this dangerous habit that’s putting you, and possibly others, at risk of serious injury?

Leisure-time recreational horse owners are ill-advised to take on these kinds of problems. It’s hazardous, it’s expensive, and it’s NOT FUN. [B]“Love,” “rescue,” “clickers,” “Parelli,” and $2.75 will get you a ride downtown.

(In an ambulance!) :uhoh:

[Countrywood]

She’s only had him three months, I’ve known worse behavior go on to long happy lives with owners.

[Foxtrot_s]

Oh Kerrist, LE - give the horse a chance - don’t condemn him to being called a rogue just yet.

It’s always that way, get rid of him, blah, blah, blah.

OP sounds like she’s sensible. Lots of good suggestions here and I give her kudos for trying to work with him.

There may indeed come a point where she will feel she can go no further - I hope OP does the right thing for this horse in that case and not send him not another even more unsuitable home than the one he came form.

Trainers are not always the answer - trust is the answer and time. He might come back worse off.

BUT OP - safety first - get the experienced help you need if working alone with him…please.
Helmet, gloves, you know.

[Chachie]

Lol I’m not a fan of clicker training. While I know some people swear by it, and I do understand the rational behind it, it’s not something I want to do. It makes me feel like my jorse, dog, cat etc needs a remote control. (I call the remote “the clicker” so there you go lol) I’m not making fun of anyone who has their animals trained that way; it’s just not for me.
I admit, I’m kinda old school…no use for fads or gimmicks. To me, ground work is the key and when working with troubled animals, patience is the best. I’m not sure who it was that called him a rogue, but that he is not. If he were a rogue, there would be no handling him, he would flip out for no reason, there IS a reason: he was traumatized at some point when it comes to his legs. And knowing he was pin fired, well, it’s probably stemming from that. I am trying to track now his medical history and have his race trainer/owner’s info to contact them.
I do know that he bounced around because of bad rescues. One was shut down, another was a hoarder, and one of the 2 homes in between were good the other was bad. From what I do know, he wasn’t bounced around because of his fear of having his legs handled. The good home was able to work through it, but he got worse when he went to the hoarder so I guess no one continued with the patience/trust=respect dialogue with him.
The things I am doing with him are touching him with a lead rope, a towel, a bottle, a hose, just basic desensitizing things I would do with a foal. This is the same thing his one “good owner” did with him.
I do take little steps towards progress, and I can hose his legs and brush one leg. He has good ground manners otherwise, leads, follows, gets on the trailer, cross ties, etc. He lunges well, respects personal space, and other than the cribbing, and leg issues, he’s generally a well behaved guy, which is why I am pretty sure he can get through this again. I have no problems putting down a horse that can’t be handled safely but I don’t think that he’s THAT horse.
I do always try to be safe when I work with him about his legs and do wear a helmet if I try to pick them up. I am going to try the rope trick to encourage him to lift his feet. I hadn’t thought of that, even though I do touch him constantly with his lead.

[fordtraktor]

Just skip the clicker. Stroke the legs with the whip or stick or whatever, and when the horse relaxes give it a treat. The loop a rope around his hoof and teach him to give to that. Give him a treat and say “good boy!” When he is. Same thing. You don’t need a stupid clicker IMO. When he is cool with all that you can pick up his feet more safely.

[Foxtrot_s]

Thanks OP. Some of the comments mentioned here is because people to not know you, or your level of horsiness. I do hope he works out. I’m like you, more old school and believe in taking it slow. Make haste slowly, meaning that as you gain his trust, the rest will come quicker and quicker.

We cannot get the whole story as we are not there …

It was so meaningful to see my own horse come around and gain trust.

[Alexie]

Clicker training vote from me too. It may not be for you, but it might help your horse. Be a little more open minded, what have you to lose? Use a pen for a clicker, you won’t even have to buy anything. Best wishes, however you proceed, good on you for taking him on.

[SuzieQNutter]

I think you are going about it the right way. I would teach him to stand still. Then as you brush where I can. Each day you go just a tiny bit futher. Stay safe but if he moves you keep touching until he is still and then it goes away. Still you remove the pressure and he learns to stand. Always stay safe. If that means padding a stick and teaching him that being touched with the stick is a good thing and using that instead of your hand so be it. You can use whatever you like - your hand, a brush or a padded stick.

[Altermyne]

Clicker training is a good idea, if you are comfortable with it. c/t for every response you like.

General desensitization is also good. I’d start with a whip or stick or something that gives you some distance. I’d rub her withers, if she’s good with that c/t. Then I’d move just 2 or 3 inches below, can she be still with the whip there? c/t if she’s doing what you want, then move 2 or 3 inches below that. By moving incrementally, you will find exactly where she begins to tense up, and don’t move further down than that spot till she has 5 or 6 correct responses…in a row. When you start over each day, start back at her withers, which will help to jog her memory and set you both up for success.

look up the 300 peck method…that’s what you are doing.

[Altermyne]

apparently I either did not read far enough or there were more posts while I was typing.

anyway, if you aren’t comfortable using a clicker, don’t. But please do work at this incrementally and from a distance bc it doesn’t sound to me like you know exactly how far you can go without him becoming tense or nervous or explosive. You need to know where that emotion becomes something he can’t handle and stay under threshold, till he CAN handle it. Use a cue work (good, yess, nice) in place of the clicker and remove the pressure when he can do what you ask. If you understand the theory as you say you do, then you know the clicker is simply a marker and you can substitute the clicker with any other marker, and remove pressure as the reward. I think you will have slower progress this way, but it’s better than forcing him and you getting hurt.

[findeight]

Don’t blame the pin firing. At one time many, if not most, race horses were pin fired, owned more then a few of them, including a QH. None were traumatized by it…a few were tramatized but from crappy treatment in the intervening years between pin firing and my getting them.

These days the procedure is different then it was 40 years ago, it still can leave tiny bumps. Even back then, the procedure was not draconian butchery and was done standing and sedated. No reason it would doom a young horse to a life time of being terrified to have its legs touched, not when it would have been routinely wrapped daily and seen by farrier at the track after the procedure.

Something else happened between then and now. Be careful who you have handle this one, this behavior can really get somebody hurt. There is wisdom in LE’s remarks even if harsh…she’s right.

[Simkie]

Clicker training is a concept, really, not a piece of equipment. Years ago, I read this book about clicker training (no idea if it’s still in print, but it’s available used) and what I found simply PROFOUND about it was how it explained how to break up the learning process into very small tasks. There’s far more to it, of course, but the book might be an interesting read for you as you move forward with this horse. I use lessons learned from that book every day when interacting with my animals (or husband, ha!!) and haven’t touched a clicker in years.

That said, there IS research that shows a sharp click noise does activate a different place in the brain and that’s why it’s such an effective mark. If you think this guy is having a hard time identifying good behavior, you really may consider using a clicker or something else that makes a clear, sharp noise to mark the “Yes! That’s right!” moments. He may progress very quickly once he knows exactly what you want. Voice or a pat or whatever is often just a much more ambiguous marker. He may be craving very definite feedback.

I’ve only played around with training with an actual clicker and horses a few times, but it was totally fascinating to me how the horse really obviously became a participant in the process and was searching for the action that would trigger the click and reward.

[Christa_P]

I haven’t seen it mentioned, but what is the footing like where you’re working? Make sure you’re on a level, nonslip surface like dirt or gravel. I happen to have a concrete aisle in my barn (it’s the foundation from an old cow barn). It is not real slippery and most of my horses are fine on it, but one panics if you try to pick up her back feet on the concrete, but move her to dirt or gravel and she is fine, though it did take some bribery and time.

[chai]

OP, it sounds like you are a caring horsewoman doing a good job with this guy. I have taken in many difficult, old and unwanted horses in my life including a bunch of OTTBs so I know they can carry serious PTSD if they were traumatized as youngsters at the track. One of my old OTTBS had been pin fired and I agree with the posters who state that the pin firing probably has nothing to do with the hind leg issue, but your poor guy has obviously experienced something terrible that results in such a dangerous, extreme reaction.

While I think that Lady Eboshi’s out of hand criticism is rather harsh, she does make a point that a horse with behaviors this dangerous is not for the average horse owner, and may have issues beyond the scope of a human to ‘correct’.

I would be very careful about sending him off to anyone for two reasons: you won’t know what they are doing to ‘retrain’ him, and this horse should never go to anyone who resells horses on consignment. That is putting someone else in extreme danger down the road.

My advice is to find a competent professional to come to you for a serious evaluation of the situation and help. Please be careful, though. If you continue to try, and this behavior is so deep seated that you are really worried that this horse could hurt or, God forbid, kill you, it’s time to make the decision to euthanize the horse. Do not pass him on down the road where he might be further traumatized or hurt someone.
I know. I did have one OTTB mare who had behaviors that were so unpredictable and dangerous that after years of trying everything under the sun to help her find mental stability, I had her euthanized on my farm when my vet said, “You’ve done enough. She could kill you.”
PM me anytime and I wish you all the best.

[BEARCAT]

Another vote for clicker training. That said, it is not something to use if you don’t understand the basic principles and science behind it. It has nothing to do with a remote LOL

I have successfully used an old glove duct taped to the end of an old longe whip which had lost its lash to simulate a hand touch, yet keep a safe distance.

[Gestalt]

You asked for ideas so here is mine. Open your mind to different training approaches. As another poster said, clicker training might not be for you, but it could be what your horse needs. I had a gelding years ago that was a pita to handle. After years, yes years, of us picking at one another I tried clicker training. It was like a light bulb went off in his head, it wasn’t so much the actual clicker, it was the “bridge”.

Also, as others have said, the pin firing isn’t the cause of his fear. I would be more inclined to wonder if it wasn’t hock or hip pain. Maybe picking his back feet up hurts. My tb mare needed special care when being shod/trimmed. The farrier would keep her back leg straight (no sideways twist) and only lift it a few inches off the ground. Back breaker for him, but he was determined not to cause her pain.

[saultgirl]

@BEARCAT;8750960

Another vote for clicker training. That said, it is not something to use if you don’t understand the basic principles and science behind it. It has nothing to do with a remote LOL

She doesn’t. Or she wouldn’t compare it to a remote.

[shayaalliard]

I use the basic principles of clicker training with no clicker, I use a cluck of my tongue as the bridge. These are the sort of issues it works really well with- in fact I used that method with my friends horse who would rear and run backwards when feet were handled. I can rasp his feet loose in the stall now- although it took a while to get there!