Need to pick an alternate stallion... help? Hano @ Celle

[Somekindawonderful]

OK, so I think I have seen a few comments now on Lissaro that might make me hesitant that even though he is eye candy and sounds like a real sweetheart, if I choose him for this mare I might get a tank. Don Darius - I will consider for next year, he is not on the “in-stock” list, but really my kinda man and looks like a good match for this mare.

Bonifatius is still in consideration, I am a little bit cautious having tried him last year without luck with this mare. In hindsight I did not follow with Oxytocin and in future I think I will make that SOP; it should not do harm, mare will have a few cramps but better that than an extra round of rectal palps and a rebreed. 8yr old healthy mare should be a good candidate for frozen, but I will research how others have fared with Bonifatius frozen; and definitely comment if you have any further info.

So, my for list for more research:
Bonifatius
Comte
Furst Nymphenburg
Royal Blend
Le Primeur

Your comments are appreciated, I appreciate the insight. Are any of the above known for “super-duper-rocket-fuel” frozen? I’m a bit gun shy, after last year’s Hochadel failure…

[Dan]

[QUOTE=alexandra;7449609]
P.S. regarding Bonifatius: on hears a lot of good things of his offspring. The eldest are now started under saddle.[/QUOTE]

Check out our Bonifatius gelding Bel Canto on our website :-). We think he turned out super.

The only downside with this cross is it takes them a little longer to mature and fill out.

Dan

[rodawn]

[QUOTE=Somekindawonderful;7449598]
FANTASTIC input everyone, I really appreciate it. Apparently I will have to choose from one of the “in-stock” stallions - so it narrows down the list. For those who are game to comment, I have copied the list below.

I had a few questions for those kind enough to comment already, for my education - if you could clarify for me?

@ Kareen = you advise against Lissaro for this mare, can you expand? What did you see as weak in this match, or is it the choice of a more jumper-bred x dressage lines?

@ stoicfish = thanks for the link to the video of Edward. He is lovely! Looks very BIG though. He’s still on my personal wish list, but for this dose ruled out. Not on the inventory list… so maybe another mare, next year.

@ Kareen: Compte I really like, and considered last year very closely for another mare. I ended up choosing Cassillias in the end but he’s still on my watch list. Compte is on my top list again…

@ blume: you’ve seen Compte in person? I had noted some pics on your website in the past, and positive comments. What are your comments on this cross?

Here is the list; my top 3 right now are: Comte, Furst Nymphenburg, and maybe Royal Blend?

Avagon
Bonifatius Cautious… tried one LY on a good cycle = no luck and this is from the same shipment
Brentano II
Cassillias Expecting a Cassillias foal this yr from another mare, would wait to see how that turns out
Chacco Gold
Comte
Dancier
Diacontinus
Don Bosco
Don Frederico LIKE, but sounds like he won’t help ridability
Don Henrico
Don Index
Escudo I
Furst Nymphenburg ooooolala! Tell me more?
Furst Rousseau Need more info
Graf Grannus
Graf Top
Grey Top
Heinrich Heine
Laptop
Lissaro van de Helle ? One comment on him not being a good match - need more info
Le Primeur Maybe less marketable if he is already avail in Canada @ SM, and if I did choose him I should arrange directly with SM - support CDN stallion owners?
Locksley II
Londontime
Perigueux
Quaid
Quarterhall
Rascalino
Royal Blend Might throw heavy…? But good temperament.
Sporcken Liked and wanted LY, but some comments from others who saw him in person on his temperament make me shy off here
Stakkato
Stolzenberg
Valentino LOVELY colt at LY’s inspection, super-movement.
Viscount Hmmmm
Weltmeyer
Wolkentanz Would breed back LFG to WKII, he’s Canadian afterall! He’ll always be my back-up man, if I need fresh for this mare.[/QUOTE]

Lissaro needs TB blood refinement. He is big and he can throw big. But he is also multi-talented and has offspring that are multitalented.

The Royal Blend mare I saw in person was not heavy. She was extremely high strung and out of a mare who was not high strung. It is noted that he can be hot. Rotspon (his sire) does not always cool down a hot blood. I, however, only saw the one mare so it’s a very small pool of reference, but I do know her breeder and he said he would not use it again. She has a good temperament and character, but she is hot and needs a sensitive handler and is NOT AA appropriate. Her movement is WOW.

Where are you going with your direction? Jumping or Dressage?

Valentino will provide good jump and his Belisar damsire will throw through excellent movement. Valentino’s great movement comes from Belisar. Belisar was one of Holland’s top dressage sires and even after his death, his mares and sons keep his value index very, very high. I quite like Valentino and am trying him this year, hopefully the mare will get pregnant.

Viscount is not proven yet to know where his foals are heading (sport), but are most likely heading for jumper sport, not dressage. He, himself, has good movement coming from Valentino, and can jump very well.

Sporcken has fantastic movement, but he is a sensitive boy and can pass that on. Nothing wrong with his temperament. He just has some spirit.

Too bad Dannebrog was not available on stand-by. I have some of his semen in the tank. Got an exquisite filly from him with superb character and type. His semen was very good. We are repeating that breeding this year.

Out of your 3 top choices mentioned thus far, I like Comte best for your mare. His semen is good.

As another note, since you mentioned you loved Hochadel so much, you could consider a different Hohenstein son - Harvard. He is known for passing on good type. He is a lovely combination of Cardinal and Hohenstein, providing some valuable blood to your mare.

[Gayle_in_Oregon]

I have a Don Frederico mare who got 75% in her first time in the dressage ring with pretty much all 8s for collective remarks except for the rider who got 7…After that her scores went up till she got injured. I don’t get the idea that he does not make ridability? He is the sire of some of the best horses in Germany and over her right now…Maybe he makes too much power for some riders. I don’t know.

[Donella]

[QUOTE=Gayle in Oregon;7450564]
I have a Don Frederico mare who got 75% in her first time in the dressage ring with pretty much all 8s for collective remarks except for the rider who got 7…After that her scores went up till she got injured. I don’t get the idea that he does not make ridability? He is the sire of some of the best horses in Germany and over her right now…Maybe he makes too much power for some riders. I don’t know.[/QUOTE]

They are generally known to be difficult horses. Obviously that is a big generalization because there are always exceptions. No doubt he can make uber talented horses. It’s not that there is too much power it is that the rideability is not very good and they can spend a lot of their energy working against vs for you. It appears to me that Isabel Werth’s Don Fred gives her a hard time more often than not. So yah, no debating he is an incredible horse but it is no secret he is also difficult. Again, not disputing his ability to make really competitive dressage horses but high rideability is not something he is known to consistently produce.

But if you have one that is good that way you are lucky! If I had the right mare, I would use him for sure.

[half_pass1]

Edward is on my list for one of my mares this year, however she is a very TB looking mare (despite having no TB in her for many, many generations!). Saw him in Verden last month and just love that horse. Great movement, super brain - love how tuned in he was to his young rider. However, he is a solid boy and I think you might run the risk of producing an absolute clumper of a foal from him given that your mare is also quite solid.

Don Darius, saw him also at Verden. He was on my list until I saw him in person. Walk, trot, canter… all super, but was paddling quite a bit in the trot. I’m not sure if this is how he normally goes, but he certainly was on the evening of the Stallion Show. As the mare I was thinking of putting him to only got a 7 for her front limbs in her inspection, not something I wanted to risk.

Fürstbischof was really really nice. Seemed really calm and relaxed and moved really nicely under his rider.

[Somekindawonderful]

HP: when I looked at the video of Edward, what struck me most was his “happy ears” - you could see how attentive he was to the rider, really attentive and he was making the work look easy. He looks like he’s be a really good boy with a strong work ethic. If I had a TB-y mare, he’d be a candidate all right!

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=half*pass;7450778]
Don Darius, saw him also at Verden. He was on my list until I saw him in person. Walk, trot, canter… all super, but was paddling quite a bit in the trot. I’m not sure if this is how he normally goes, but he certainly was on the evening of the Stallion Show.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this info. I was emphatically told by a breeder that Don Frederico’s paddling shouldn’t be cause for concern, however he obviously does pass it on. I feel that kind of fault is a huge issue for a breeding stallion, and coupled with his “tricky rideability”, I would be uber careful about the kind of mare I used with him. In fact, I would probably cross him off my list entirely - there are plenty of other nice stallions out there that are more correct in their gaits and without the rideability issues.

[Somekindawonderful]

Don Frederico is definitely talented! I am envious - it sounds like your mare got the best of both, talent + ridability. What are her dam lines? Do you think they might be the stronger contributor for her good attitude?

It’s a great discussion! Is ridability really inherited? How much of temperament/character does a foal “learn” from the mare / early herdmates and does that also play a role? It’s not as exact a science as some other traits.

My mare is sensitive and inexperienced. I purchased her as a 6-yr old who had never left her farm, ever been turned out with another horse, never trailered, etc. Well-cared for but just no life experience and really green with everything. She’s an alpha mare, 17H and can be a handful but I am still not sure how much of that is nature vs nurture. She’s coming along well, and raising a foal has matured her but until I am sure of what she throws I’d rather choose a sire with a good or better rep on that attribute. You can never have a horse who is too willing or too easy, afterall! I have another mare who pretty much has a shiny halo over her ears… DF’s on her “list”!

[Kareen]

In my experience Don Frederico offspring is extremely rideable. It’s their sometimes being quirky that got them this reputation of tricky. To me that’s a totally different story.
The ones I’ve worked around, met or managed at sales, shows etc. all were very supple, balanced and talented as well as very pleasant in the bridle but they all were also strong personalities and on the more lively side.
So to get the best out of them one clearly has to convince them and make them stick to the program which requires a skill to balance being strict/persistent and forgiving.
In my experience this is a skill not everybody in equestrian sport has mastered and it’s a pity these horses often don’t get the training and relationship they need to excell.
Just my two cts.

Re. Le Primeur: I guess you’re referring to the Hanoverian stallion book breed values which are based on MPT results and evaluation of auction horses.
His current FN breed values are 123 in dressage and 136 in jumping so clearly positive. Those are based on SPT results and performance offspring.

[Spike]

I got the chance to watch the live presentation of the Celle stallions on ClipMyHorse earlier this year and I must say Edward’s presentation was candy for the eyes. Londontime as well, just before him. I was alone in front of my computer and I was having that big smile on my face for all his presentation, and hubby walked in the room and he tought I was so funny to smile like crazy all alone watching dressage videos

[stoicfish]

Re. Le Primeur: I guess you’re referring to the Hanoverian stallion book breed values which are based on MPT results and evaluation of auction horses.
His current FN breed values are 123 in dressage and 136 in jumping so clearly positive. Those are based on SPT results and performance offspring.

Good to know.
What does the discrepancy (difference) in numbers say to you?

The MPT are usually younger while the SPT are a range of ages and levels, so does this mean that they show more of the talent at the higher levels? Or are those scores calculated like the WBFSH, where one or two top horses can really boost the numbers?

[Kareen]

Well mostly the scores are given by different people (FN judges vs. auction riders and breed-associated judges). So in theory there would be a bit of breed bias thinkable and you’re also very likely to get a scoresheet that is somewhat in aligning with what the general perception of your mare’s pedigree is.
For instance if you bring out an Acord II-Drosselklang II mare she’d be highly unlikely to catch anything above 7 on her walk no matter how similar she was in her walk to another (say Don Frederico-Lauries Crusador xx just for the illustration) mare who is very likely to get an 8 or up because after seeing somehundred offspring of both worlds who fit into this scheme judges tend to look at horses assuming there are more horses who apply to the rule than exceptions. This mechanism is in my opinion very counterproductive as it will not result in those Acord II-Drosselklang II getting a high walk score who have a good walk despite their being bred ‘differently’ and at the end of the day you will (in a simplified version) end up with a reality where any jumperbred mare is nearly “walkfree” as we say here. In the same dilemma you will be if you use a stallion with a known weakness in one or the other basic gaits. For instance the ‘reality’ that Dancier offspring have walk issues has become more or less a self-fulfilling prophecy in this country because even the mares (or stallions) that have good walks are being scored overcritically on the walk.
For instance one of Dancier’s inarguably best performing sons wasn’t even licensed in the first place. It was only after he had come out under saddle and won everything left right and centre that he was given the initial go to reproduce.

All of this goes in conjunction with the increasing demand for a more practical and less pedigree-founded evaluation of young horses.
IMO any horse should be judged individually because it’s essentially the ‘freaks’ who stand out against all odds that will create new lines and new implusions.
I see too much reheating of what has been especially in dressage. We’re missing the Georg Vorwerks of the world and also a Dr. Lehmann and many other experts who in their time dared bringing in new and valuable blood.
What happens today is more or less a copy of the throwaway-culture we see everywhere else in life.
A young stallion comes highly decorated through his licensing, sells for a medium six figure amount as a 2.5yo (and everybody involved in breeding knows there’s no way to predict what they will produce at this age no matter how they’re bred) and then often disappear into the abyss.
Today’s market doesn’t take the time to wait and see what’s coming from them. Careers like Rubinsteins, Gotthards and many other ‘late’ stallions would simply not happen nowadays. That’s why we’re getting so much of a uniform but less interesting and less genetically valuable population.
Another issue is the selection aiming at saleable foals (think puppydoll trot machines) vs. performance horse. Specifically in dressage this is getting more and more in our way.
One of the reasons German sporthorse breeding is currently drawing the short straw vs. Holland and Belgium is because our structure has changed faster than for our neighbors: Previously horses were part of the farming culture and as a result if one didn’t work out or couldn’t be sold due to problems of whatever sort it was eliminated from the breed and the market by either disappearing in some cheap dealership or if the problem was more severe it had his head chopped off.
All you have to do to see that this mentality is still vividly in action with our currently more successful neighbors is to go and attend a cheap market or foreclosure sale and watch the numbers of “well bred” (meaning having highly reknown bloodlines) sell there for a very small Euro and where to.
I’m not saying I approve of it but to a degree it’s the price you’ve got to pay if you breed for the top.
Here in Germany the farmers are very much on the downswing in the breeding. A breedership of let’s say young to middle aged ladies often working high positions completely unconnected to farming has taken over.
As a result ‘failures’ are being kept or offered on the normal equestrian market where they virtually obstruct the tubes because buyers have to wade through all of them before they find one that has no holes in it.
And on the other hand you’re facing a clientele that has often little horsey background and expects a blemish-free product not understanding that there is no such thing where life individuals are involved.

[DownYonder]

Kareen, that is a very sobering and thought provoking post, and mirrors some comments I have heard from others well connected to the German breeding scene.

I don’t want to quote the entire post, and while many parts of it really struck a chord, I thought this part was worth touching on.

A breedership of let’s say young to middle aged ladies often working high positions completely unconnected to farming has taken over.
As a result ‘failures’ are being kept or offered on the normal equestrian market where they virtually obstruct the tubes because buyers have to wade through all of them before they find one that has no holes in it.
And on the other hand you’re facing a clientele that has often little horsey background and expects a blemish-free product not understanding that there is no such thing where life individuals are involved.

We face the same challenges here in North America, with not too many warmblood breeders coming from a background of farming/livestock production. And I also understand there is quite a loss of generational breeders in Germany (which probably falls under your comment about breeders being “completely unconnected to farming”). We have never really had a plethora of generational breeders here - there are a few, but the life of a breeder is not attractive to very many kids, who would rather make their living in a way that affords more disposable income and free time.

And sorry to the OP for getting off topic.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;7457275]
Kareen, that is a very sobering and thought provoking post, and mirrors some comments I have heard from others well connected to the German breeding scene.

I don’t want to quote the entire post, and while many parts of it really struck a chord, I thought this part was worth touching on.

We face the same challenges here in North America, with not too many warmblood breeders coming from a background of farming/livestock production. And I also understand there is quite a loss of generational breeders in Germany (which probably falls under your comment about breeders being “completely unconnected to farming”). We have never really had a plethora of generational breeders here - there are a few, but the life of a breeder is not attractive to very many kids, who would rather make their living in a way that affords more disposable income and free time.[/QUOTE]

And sorry to the OP for getting off topic.

[clint]

Kareen, thank you for that eloquent post.

[stoicfish]

Thank-you Kareen for taking time to provide an excellent answer to my question.
I am a 4th generation farm person (in Canada) and totally get what you are saying. And it is also good that you pointed out that buyers and their expectations are part of the change.
The whole shift in rural culture is affecting more than just horses, it affects food supplies and food quality. It is a far reaching issue.

On a lighter note I may have to borrow “puppydoll trot machines”

[ilka_tu]

[QUOTE=rodawn;7450142]
Out of your 3 top choices mentioned thus far, I like Comte best for your mare. His semen is good.[/QUOTE]

Would love to hear more about Comte, what does he tend to add to the equation?

[Somekindawonderful]

Same here, I am still trying to decide. Anything more to share on Comte, or the others?

My “short list” is down to:
Comte
Le Primeur
Bonifatius
Valentino

[rodawn]

To the OP:

Comte will improve type and legs, but will not add/decrease whatever dressage ability your mare throws forward, but he will probably add to some of the jumping ability. He’s a lovely stallion with nice type himself. If your mare needs more “jump” (as in a better canter), then this is a stallion who can probably help with that. Comte’s dressage (dressage = movement) scores were okay during his performance test of 110.24 and his jumping score was 130.42. His breeding index shows dressage hovering pretty near 100 (meaning not add to and not detract from), while his breeding jump index is 151, meaning he has been showing through his offspring that he can add tremendous jump.

http://service.vit.de/pferd_praesentation/Front;jsessionid=4BA50CB5ABA0EA623898C16BC040C0A9.jvm4?L=0&verband=31&aktion=SelektionVb31Hvp&anzeigezweck=Hengstverteilungsplan

Valentino as well has very good type, movement, superb character and could just as easily do a dressage test as he could jump a course. Valentino’s performance test dressage score (121.09) and jumping score (141.47) were fairly balanced. His breeding production scores via his offspring show that he adds to the dressage movement (110) and improves the jump (144). Valentino’s damsire Belisar was a multipurpose stallion. He was a dressage horse himself, one of Holland’s best sires, as I already stated, but paired with a jump line mare, he produced a very good jumper with improved gaits and superb character. His own sire, Saros xx, was an approved TB who definitely leaned towards jumper. There are many, many instances of Morssink Senior and his family in Holland crossing their Saros mares with Now or Never or Belisar mares with Now or Never with wonderful results which is why 4 of their stallions are now standing at Celle (Toronto, Uccello, Wilson, Valentino) and several standing in other countries, including Silver Creek’s stallion, Vallado.

http://service.vit.de/pferd_praesentation/Front;jsessionid=4BA50CB5ABA0EA623898C16BC040C0A9.jvm4?L=0&verband=31&aktion=SelektionVb31Hvp&anzeigezweck=Hengstverteilungsplan

It really depends on what your mare already presents to the table and what you know she pushes forward in her babies in spite of the stallion.

So, for example, if she has already proven a strong propensity to put forward really good dressage movement in her babies, but perhaps can use more “jump” (canter jump), then maybe Comte is the better choice.

If you don’t know what she pushes forward in her babies or if she tends to defer to the stallion, you may be better off sticking with a really balanced stallion such as Valentino.

Le Primeur’s stat prove he already needs a mare with very good type. He will detract type quite a bit. He will also detract from some of the dressage movement, but improve the jump (canter). For your particular mare, Le Primeur is not the right choice, IMO.

http://service.vit.de/pferd_praesentation/Front?L=0&verband=31&aktion=SelektionVb31Hvp&anzeigezweck=Hengstverteilungsplan