Need to pick an alternate stallion... help? Hano @ Celle

[Somekindawonderful]

OK, so I thought I had my plan together for 2014 but it turns out that the stallion I had chosen (Dr.Watson) is not going to be available for export to Canada this year.
I need to choose an alternate from the Celle list of stallions:

http://www.canadianhanoverians.com/breeding/information-for-ordering-frozen-semen-from-the-celle-national-state-stud/
available for export this year, so I need to choose an alternate.
Ideally around the same $570 price point would keep it simplest, but not really a deal-breaker.

It either needs to be a dose that I just should have in the tank, or suitable for the one mare I am planning to breed this year:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=AZ4RU_&d=avaia

She has a filly by Wolkentanz II, and a Freestyle on the way. She’ll be foaling “late”, so I’ll give her one try at a 2015 or she goes back to work for a bit and then an earlier 2016.

Looking for inspiration! Your thoughts?

[ewells]

From the list you have there and your interest in Dr Watson I like
Dannebrog for your mare you get the Don Schufro closer up and I like Brentano II

Good luck.

[stoicfish]

Don Frederico? Not in the price range but I’m spending your money so it’s all good
Hochadel for a more ammy offspring.

How did the Wolkentanz ll turn out?

[Dan]

If it is one you would not mind keeping, I would say Edward. I would not expect flashy as a foal, however, this is exactly the type of riding horse I would want when they grow up.

Dan

[Somekindawonderful]

@ ewells: Brentano II is certainly proven, but I am not sure if this cross might create a tank. She’s a mighty big mare, so I want to take care to not get any heavier/more bone than she already has. Dannebrog is interesting, and I have to admit my weakness for liver chestnut.:winkgrin:

@ stoicfishL I do really like Don Frederico. I was crazy over Hochadel, and I did breed her to him last year but the semen was not good. This is a replacement for that dose, in fact! So, I would like a Hochadel but sadly I doubt there will be many pregnancies from that stallion that are via frozen. Don Frederico would be a good choice for a purpose-bred dressage foal, and this mare is Alabaster/Ehrentusch.

Her Wolkentanz II filly is very good, she’s very correct in her conformation and movement. More butt and shorter back vs her dam. She’s also growing really nicely, not one of those gangly/growthy youngsters but she is going to be big. She’s nicely proportioned and well balanced and doesn’t look coarse but she’s solid. My husband thinks I should keep her, and sell mom… and I am waiting to have a really good look at her at her first birthday but I think he’s right.

@ Dan: Edward has caught my interest because he has such a well-balanced pedigree for an all-around athlete, and I love the motherline, I think we have that in common! I have a Fabriano mare with the best work ethic who is just so much fun and game for anything. His scores from the SPT are great, but I’d really like to see some video of how he moves, but haven’t found any yet. I do like that he has great scores for rideability, and where this mare might benefit from improvement. He’s on my short-list. RE: your comments on foal appearance, have you bred to him or had a chance to see some youngsters? Lanky?

The other stallion on my list is Lissaro VD Helle. I’m not even sure why he catches my eye so much, but again as a more all-arounder if I choose to go that route.

Good suggestions so far, I’m thinking!

[Blume_Farm]

From the list of available Celle stallion I too like Lissabon VD Helle. He has super movement, very elastic, but is small and compact.

Londontime I think is a great stallion. Not nearly as refined as Londonderry himself, but lovely.

Rotspon is generally know to produce a good ammy mind, although all over the place with predictability of size.

[Donella]

Edward is being campaigned at the small tour level and quite competitively it seems. Nice boy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-uhxxJxBg4

Don Frederico is a great producer of some very nice dressage horses but I would not use him if you are looking to improve rideability.

[Kareen]

Comte seems to make very useful horses with very attractive type and could compliment your mare’s lineage. Don Darius might work well too. As much as I love Edward but I wouldn’t use him with your mare based on her lines and pictures.
Le Primeur would be awesome but I don’t know about his frozen, maybe someone can chime in with experience?
Love Lissaro (expecting two here on the farm myself) but definitely not for this mare. If she has worked well with Wolkenstein II why not try Silberschmied?
Viscount would be an idea to improve alround athletism and type in the same token…
Werther if you dare going way back and don’t mind baby being on the hotter side of the spectrum

Plenty of good choices. Will you keep us posted?

[Edgewood]

@Kareen;7448655

Viscount would be an idea to improve alround athletism and type in the same token…

Viscount would be very interesting. He did very well in both the dressage and jumping portions of his SPT, even though he is more jumper bred. If you search the forum, there is a thread on his sire Valentino’s dam line, which is from a famous Dutch dam line. I know I saw a foal in Germany out of a dressage-bred mare and it was a nice foal.

There are multiple videos of him online and also photos. Plus if you have a clipmyhorse membership, he was at the Celle Stallion show.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Donella;7448652]
Edward is being campaigned at the small tour level and quite competitively it seems. Nice boy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-uhxxJxBg4

Don Frederico is a great producer of some very nice dressage horses but I would not use him if you are looking to improve rideability. ;)[/QUOTE]

My friend has a lovely Edward colt who has the best type of personality. He is not under saddle yet and doesn’t have extravagant movement but I would bet he is going to be a really nice horse under saddle. The perfect type for an ammy that can go to the higher levels and be a joy to ride.

[stoicfish]

Le Primeur is offered through SM again, I believe.
I see jumpers by him that move nicely but I don’t see many dressage horses by him. Kareen, you probably have a better view point.

[Kareen]

Well I can tell many breeders in this country absolutely hated to see him leave the country and he does have 5 children competing at S level dressage as well as a clearly positive breed value index for both dressage and jumping.
Not to forget the other big bonus he comes with: Survivor of 6 years of showing under Mr. Winter that speaks for a tough health and a die hard will to please.
Laptop too has had great dressage horses among his children, it was just such a shame he was difficult to manage and keep in condition. I’ve ridden quite a few Laptops and they were all super athletic for both disciplines. I see all of that in Le Primeur minus the downsides of Laptop.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Kareen;7449199]
Well I can tell many breeders in this country absolutely hated to see him leave the country and he does have 5 children competing at S level dressage as well as a clearly positive breed value index for both dressage and jumping.
Not to forget the other big bonus he comes with: Survivor of 6 years of showing under Mr. Winter that speaks for a tough health and a die hard will to please.
Laptop too has had great dressage horses among his children, it was just such a shame he was difficult to manage and keep in condition. I’ve ridden quite a few Laptops and they were all super athletic for both disciplines. I see all of that in Le Primeur minus the downsides of Laptop.[/QUOTE]

I looked up his Breeding values and he got a 92 in dressage and 132 in Jumping. I have a horse with LP in the pedigree because I liked the well rounded and versatile pedigree. Maybe you could share what the dam lines were like in the horses that did well in dressage. We miss that type of information here in Canada and any offspring is a result of knowledge of the parents and picking a good fit.

Ps what was the issue with Lap Top in particular?

[alexandra]

For this mare I would look at Don Darius and Bonifatius, based on her lines and picture. Certainly not Edward or Lissaro unles you like big and big bodied horses.

Viscount may be an otion aswell - seen him last week and he has good movement and seems very rideable.

[Somekindawonderful]

FANTASTIC input everyone, I really appreciate it. Apparently I will have to choose from one of the “in-stock” stallions - so it narrows down the list. For those who are game to comment, I have copied the list below.

I had a few questions for those kind enough to comment already, for my education - if you could clarify for me?

@ Kareen = you advise against Lissaro for this mare, can you expand? What did you see as weak in this match, or is it the choice of a more jumper-bred x dressage lines?

@ stoicfish = thanks for the link to the video of Edward. He is lovely! Looks very BIG though. He’s still on my personal wish list, but for this dose ruled out. Not on the inventory list… so maybe another mare, next year.

@ Kareen: Compte I really like, and considered last year very closely for another mare. I ended up choosing Cassillias in the end but he’s still on my watch list. Compte is on my top list again…

@ blume: you’ve seen Compte in person? I had noted some pics on your website in the past, and positive comments. What are your comments on this cross?

Here is the list; my top 3 right now are: Comte, Furst Nymphenburg, and maybe Royal Blend?

Avagon
Bonifatius Cautious… tried one LY on a good cycle = no luck and this is from the same shipment
Brentano II
Cassillias Expecting a Cassillias foal this yr from another mare, would wait to see how that turns out
Chacco Gold
Comte
Dancier
Diacontinus
Don Bosco
Don Frederico LIKE, but sounds like he won’t help ridability
Don Henrico
Don Index
Escudo I
Furst Nymphenburg ooooolala! Tell me more?
Furst Rousseau Need more info
Graf Grannus
Graf Top
Grey Top
Heinrich Heine
Laptop
Lissaro van de Helle ? One comment on him not being a good match - need more info
Le Primeur Maybe less marketable if he is already avail in Canada @ SM, and if I did choose him I should arrange directly with SM - support CDN stallion owners?
Locksley II
Londontime
Perigueux
Quaid
Quarterhall
Rascalino
Royal Blend Might throw heavy…? But good temperament.
Sporcken Liked and wanted LY, but some comments from others who saw him in person on his temperament make me shy off here
Stakkato
Stolzenberg
Valentino LOVELY colt at LY’s inspection, super-movement.
Viscount Hmmmm
Weltmeyer
Wolkentanz Would breed back LFG to WKII, he’s Canadian afterall! He’ll always be my back-up man, if I need fresh for this mare.

[alexandra]

P.S. regarding Bonifatius: on hears a lot of good things of his offspring. The eldest are now started under saddle.

[Blume_Farm]

I liked Comte in person, but only saw him in-hand, not under saddle. I thought he was nicely put together and love his pedigree…but I am a HUGE fan of Contendro I, and Landadel for that matter. Having said that I do not know anything about his offspring…maybe some folks in Germany can answer that question.

I forgot about Don Darius, someone mentioned him above. I did see him under saddle and he was LOVELY…very rideable, super gaits, very nice in the bridle. I LOVE his pedigree and has Markus Deak up front so should not provide a tank:) He himself did not look huge, but I only saw him under saddle and not stood up so maybe someone else has seen him up close, stood up.

[Donella]

I am a big fan of Le Primeur. I have seen him lots as I live a few hours from Spruce and am there often. I also went when he first came and he was shown to us under Spruce’s head rider Albert Kley. He is a super, super rideable horse with a really good character. When Albert went away for a few weeks the replacement rider said she had to leave LP for last every day because everything felt bad after sitting on LP. She said he is super easy to jump in just a plain snaffle and never gets strong or difficult.

He has produced a couple of top foals at the Spruce Hanoverian shows…usually in the jumper foal classes but they are always good movers as well. I think his dressage breeding values are not so good because the vast majority of the mares he has gotten are jumper mares. I don’t think he is a dominant producer but if you have a nice moving, really typey dressage mare I think he will likely get a nice dressage foal. His canter is unbelievable. I know one time O judge Cara Witham saw him and said he could have been an international dressage horse. I totally agree. The quality at least, is there.

Ingrid Klimke was riding a really nice GP dressage horse by him…I think she just recently lost the ride.

The only thing is, I am not sure they are shipping semen for him? They are bad for updating their website but last I checked you had to take your mare to Spruce and there is no LFG offered.

I keep thinking one of these years I am going to use him on one of my dressage girls.

[Donella]

Fwiw we looked at quite a few Bonifatious offspring a few months ago at the last Verden auction. I think he is producing really well. I definitely remember thinking that I needed to look into his semen quality etc.

Lissaro is an interesting stallion. Just in looking at him I would use a really typey, modern, longer legged mare with him. He is almost cobby in type but has great bone, legs and feet. And seems to have a very nice character too. No idea what he is producing though…

[Dan]

I agree with Kareen and Alexandra regarding Edward matched with this particular mare. Should have looked at the mare first

Dan