Need to vent - Hate my boyfriend's dog

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=GaitedGloryRider;6480638]
Give the dog to someone who won’t hit it and lock it in a crate? It’s a freaking BC/Aussie Shepard. I don’t care how much you say the dog has no play drive or doesn’t want a job, I’m not buying it. Perhaps your boyfriend beat him into submission and he doesn’t show it but I’d bet it’s there, to not be defies everything this dog was bred for.

Dog sounds miserable. And I don’t care how sweet your man is to you, anyone that uses violence to train an animal is an asshole.[/QUOTE]

Yup…

[GaitedGloryRider]

[QUOTE=showhorsegallery;6480672]
You either take me for my word or you don’t. This dog does not have a play drive. I throw a frisbee at him and he ducks and walks away from it. My poodle puppy tries to get him to play and he ignores her. We take him for walks which is the only thing he seems to be interested in, but he does not run around the yard which is fenced in when off leash.

I completely think the dog has been hit into submission and it’s effecting his desire to play. I don’t deny that. Seven years later I don’t know what to do about it.

Crating a dog is not mean and has been a very effective training tool for dogs I’ve had in the past. He’s not locked in a crate like a prisoner. It’s at night.One specific rescue dog loved his crate because it made him feel secure when he got stressed.

My boyfriend is not an asshole. Hitting his dog isn’t okay but there are people out there who have not been educated on why hitting a dog is not an effective training technique and have bought into that whole “Alpha dog” school of thought. He’s not beating the dog within an inch of his life, but he has done the whole smacking on the but, scruffing the dog, pushing the dog down into the ground in a submissive position technique. Clearly that’s not a good training method but again I can’t do anything about what’s already transpired.[/QUOTE]

As for the play drive, well you’ve already said you think the dog has been hit into submission. If I’m reading you right, this has been going on for seven years? I’m no dog trainer but I kinda think that could affect his play drive. Any dog trainers feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

Never said there was anything wrong with crating. But for this dog, three months later it still doesn’t sound like it’s working. Glad your looking for other options though because it DOES sound like this dog is rather unhappy. Debarking? What the heck does that fix? Then you’ve just got an unhappy dog that can’t bark but what the heck, at least nobody will have to hear it.

Your boyfriend, well, only you know how wonderful he is. Personally I’d be on high alert if I were with someone whose response to undesirable behavior from a pet is to hit it, education or lack of in training techniques notwithstanding. There are plenty of people that don’t know beans about training their dogs who don’t respond to unwanted behavior by smacking it around (I’ll be the first one to raise my hand and admit I’m one of them).

If you hate the dog, the dog isn’t happy, and your boyfriend thinks so little of the dog he’s got no compunctions about giving it a good whack when he sees fit then I don’t see why y’all even want to keep him. Hence my statement about rehoming him.

Despite my obvious ire over how this dog has been treated I do hope you and your boyfriend turn the situation around and he becomes a happy member of your household. And I do hope you’re able to get BF to rethink his dog “training” methods. I also hope I’m wrong and he’s not an asshole, and treats you well for years to come.

Threedogs always seems to have such good training advice. I’ve incorporated a bit of what I’ve seen her offer others on this board regarding unwanted barking with my own dog (whom I’ve been stumbling along blindly with in his training since I got him) and so far it’s worked. Just throwing that out there if you’re considering giving her way a go.

[MelantheLLC]

Threedogs knows her stuff, give it a shot, but most importantly, STICK WITH IT, taking note of even the tiniest improvement. BF’s dog currently has a brain wired for alarm barking–same as a clinically depressed person has a brain wired to feel depressed. For any long-term effect, realize that you are literally re-wiring the dog’s brain. This is entirely possible but it does take time. Think of it like exercise–a muscle doesn’t get strong overnight. It gets strong through repeated, regular trials.

Barking is a funny thing in dogs. It’s obviously highly self-reinforcing. That may be one reason why using treats seems to help, counter-intuitively–they take the dog’s mind off the reinforcement it’s giving itself and shifts it to an outside stimulus.

One training “trick” used by positive trainers is to put a nuisance behavior on cue, and then just never give the cue. So theoretically, if a dog was jumping on the couch, rather than punishing it for jumping, you’d teach it to jump on the couch on cue, for rewards, and then quit giving the cue. This seems to shift the behavior into a different part of the mind, where the action that was previously self-reinforced has now been strongly associated with an external reward. But the cue to get that reward doesn’t happen, so the motivation dies. (There’s a dopamine explanation for this, but I won’t get into it. Happens in people, too–for instance, when a hobbyist turns pro, they can sometimes lose their love of the game.)

OTOH, I once tried teaching one of my pyr’s, who was a champion alarm barker, to bark on cue. It was quite easy to catch her barking, and I’d try to mark it and reinforce. But she had a terribly difficult time barking “consciously.” I’d give the cue, and she’d pucker up her lips like she was really struggling (hilarious expression) and then finally let out a soft “woof.” In fact we got to the point that she’d be barking hysterically at some coyote off in the distance, and I’d cue her to bark–she’d stop, run over to me, pucker up her lips, manage with great difficulty a little “woof”–then whirl around roaring at the window.

It was clearly two entirely different things to her–consciously producing a bark and just barking for the thrill of it. Then again, maybe I just did a bad job of training it. But it was always amusing to watch.

[RaeHughes]

SHG - that BCX is shut down (you said it yourself just not in those words) and it will need to have a play-drive. Believe me, you can create it.

I have a nervous timid BC (my little shrunken violet) - she had an awesome food drive but not play drive… well, now she has. I played with her ON HER OWN for at least 15 minutes 2x a day and then brought the other dogs out to play so she had group play. You find something and even if there is just a little play, praise the dog.

And, yes, treats do help with barking. I got that from here too and it has worked

[Calamber]

The dog is now more or less a slave of your boyfriend as it was raised with too much hand activity and too little exercise or mental stimulation activity. I would not, I repeat not, treat an animal to train it and reliably expect it to understand either way. You are training the dog to expect treats when you come into it’s proximity. That is all. It will stop barking because it associates you with a good thing. It would work just as well if you would take the dog out for a walk, find something that it will respond to such as a scent and train it to track, climb a ladder, or type a letter. This nonsense of utilizing the Pavlovian response, ie, sticking a piece of food into it’s mouth or setting off a clicker, will not allow the dog to develop a normal relationship with you. But then, you have to have a normal relationship with the dog. Your boyfriend has to be involved in this, and he has to understand that he created this problem and now that the dog is anxiety bound to him, he has to figure out how to “unlock” the problem. Get him to play with the dog, create games, get down on his hands and knees and crawl around, get the dog to do the same and see if you can get a belly crawl, I do this with my labrador who is not a swimmer when she gets in the water and “walks” on her belly and excitedly say “swim Abby swim” and have been doing this her whole life (she is ten) and for the first time in her life she went for a swim, (we have just gotten a young female lab puppy), so she is feeling extra pressure to make me happy.

What I am saying is really watch the dog, play with the dog in a different dog categorical way, and no I would not expect you to run home from work six times a day for 20 minutes to run around with the dog! I don’t think you would be employed very long unless you can get a job running dogs around that can pay the bills. Use praise vocal praise effusively, wisely, but effusively, and really mean it.

The main thing I am saying is create new opportunities for the both of you to interact with and try and draw this dog out. He does not have a healthy relationship with the dog, it is not scarred for life. It can turn around, but the two of you have to become more creative.

For your sake, (I am a light sleeper too but I am much older and have gone through anxiety attacks from hormonal changes and lack of magnesium, to now chelation therapy for metal toxicity). Try a product called Zen (sorry that is the name) which is l-theanine and GABA. Helps loads and is not a pharmaceuticl. The dog may need to be medicated for a little while with something to take the edge off. You do not need to keep doing this once the tension is out of the household and you do not keep anticiplating that this will happen each night. If the dog is barking when you come home, ignore it, hard as it might be, until it at least subsides, ask the dog to sit in the crate (it has to be big enough), no shouting stop, mabe a little “easy, easy, it is okay”, nothing harsh just a little progress and take the dog out, both of you, go for a quiet walk and just love the dog together. It will take time. This is a high anxiety breed anyway and very challenging. It is very good to see someone cares enough for someone who likely has some challenges of his own given how he thought he should train the dog and not try to have it out over the dog going to live elsewhere. The solutions I recommended may not work, but I have yet to see treats as anything but a very short term, and very limited training application without creating a problem of obsession with hands and what you have in them. I have to admit, I have to wallop this lab puppy sometimes when she tries for the 100th time to bowl me over but she is completely oblivious or nearly so. Most of those herding dogs are not.

One last thought, is there a way to leave a soft radio on for the dog (I always use classical music only) so as to block out some of the noise and create a regular “environment” around the animal. All of you have gone through big changes, really, this is to be expected a bit but the hysteria, or mad aggressive barking is somewhat of a psychotic fit and as you have noted, not associated with anything but heightened anxiety that can ramp up into aggressity. The music will help.

[Neigh-Neigh]

[QUOTE=GaitedGloryRider;6480638]
Give the dog to someone who won’t hit it and lock it in a crate? It’s a freaking BC/Aussie Shepard. I don’t care how much you say the dog has no play drive or doesn’t want a job, I’m not buying it. Perhaps your boyfriend beat him into submission and he doesn’t show it but I’d bet it’s there, to not be defies everything this dog was bred for.

Dog sounds miserable. And I don’t care how sweet your man is to you, anyone that uses violence to train an animal is an asshole.[/QUOTE]

TRUTH

[Neigh-Neigh]

[QUOTE=showhorsegallery;6480672]

I completely think the dog has been hit into submission and it’s effecting his desire to play. I don’t deny that. Seven years later I don’t know what to do about it.

Crating a dog is not mean and has been a very effective training tool for dogs I’ve had in the past. He’s not locked in a crate like a prisoner. It’s at night.One specific rescue dog loved his crate because it made him feel secure when he got stressed.

My boyfriend is not an asshole. Hitting his dog isn’t okay but there are people out there who have not been educated on why hitting a dog is not an effective training technique and have bought into that whole “Alpha dog” school of thought. He’s not beating the dog within an inch of his life, but he has done the whole smacking on the but, scruffing the dog, pushing the dog down into the ground in a submissive position technique. Clearly that’s not a good training method but again I can’t do anything about what’s already transpired.[/QUOTE]

One huge hint is being missed here, OP. You, have no doubt told your boyfriend all of this, and he ignores your advise. A man that doesnt take advise from his woman is a man with serious issues. He’s repeating the same behavior with negative feedback from the dog, and from you, and he keeps doing it. Do you NOT see a problem here?

Here’s an idea. Move out. He’s a boyfriend, not a husband. Maybe if you move out, he’ll be willing to look at a different approach to dealing with the dog. If not, well…I guess you know where you rank. Im guessing its down somewhere around where the dog does.

[magicteetango]

Seconding the supplement advice… believe it or not lavender oil rubbed on my dog’s face used to help her a bit. Maybe do that before bed time, and a long walk right before. Some people I know have put towels or blankets over the crate (not the front part just the top and sides) and it helped the dog calm down, must have seemed cozier to them.

Be patient it will take time, I would be wary of the hitting as well but you are the one who knows him.

[Trakehner]

[QUOTE=Neigh-Neigh;6480894]
One huge hint is being missed here, OP. You, have no doubt told your boyfriend all of this, and he ignores your advise. A man that doesnt take advise from his woman is a man with serious issues…Maybe if you move out, he’ll be willing to look at a different approach to dealing with the dog. If not, well…I guess you know where you rank. Im guessing its down somewhere around where the dog does.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, do it my way or leave. Sounds reasonable, if you’re a bully. He doesn’t have to take her advice and doesn’t have “serious issues” if he doesn’t do what she says. It’s her opinion and it doesn’t sound as if she thinks she’s the queen who’s word is law.

His dog is as attached to him as her small lap dog is to her (remember her dog wanting to always sit on her lap). Borders make terrible house dogs, they need a job and want to be busy…wrong breed choice.

Crates…not a thing wrong with crates if they’re used correctly. The dogs need time out of them, but they’re a nest if correctly used.

Discipling dogs. I’m not sure what “scruffing” is…to accentuate who is the boss, grabbing a dog by the side of the face, pushing them slightly back so their front feet are off the ground and making them look you in the eye while giving a low growl is a technique to reinforce “I am the alpha and you are the omega in this pack”. You’re not smacking the dog, but a swat on the butt isn’t going to cripple a dog’s psyche when it’s necessary (e.g. growling at someone, chasing a horse etc.)

An electric no-bark collar works. The “hand flappers” hate these since they’re horribly cruel (their words) and mean to the poor dogs who LUV to bark to feel fulfilled. I’ve talk all my dogs not to bark (boxers and dobbies) as puppies…sure makes for a better partner.

Sounds like too many dogs, but her dogs aren’t saints either. I feel kind’ve sorry for all of them.

[meupatdoes]

Treating for barking “sugar cookies” style is not treating for barking. In order to get the treat, the dog has to DIVERT its attention back to the human and COME to the human for treats. The change in attention and recall is being rewarded.Dog starts barking, human hollers, “Come here instead!” Dog gets treats for coming here instead.
Similarly, dog is standing in yard. Human says “sit.” Dog sits and gets treats. Is dog getting treats for standing in the yard? No, that was his behavior before he hanged it at the human’s request. Whether the human knows what they are doing or not the dog will interpret the CHANGE in behavior as what got the treat.

So just feeding it treats while it is barking in its crate is not going to change its behavior. It will just reinforce what it is doing.

OP I am surprised you would go all the way to debarking before considering a bark collar. Additionally you have majorly changed the dog’s life by no longer allowing it in the bedroom. Personally if I were considering moving in with someone that would be a deal breaker for me.

[Canaqua]

Our ACD mix does not “play”, she is a very serious dog. She has never ever played with another dog. But, she DOES want to work, badly, she needs to “work” or she’s miserable. If she doesn’t have work to do, she herds (kids, cats, other dogs) and alarm barks, relentlessly.

Her “work” sure looks like play to us…fetching sticks out of the water, chasing balls, chasing frisbees…it’s the attitude we go into it with that makes it seem like a job to her. We don’t fuss and act silly about the fetching, but treat it very seriously and reward and praise her for being the “best fetch dog in the world”. She does not respond to baby talk, high pitched glee noises, etc…serious minded people make her feel she is doing her job. You know the guy in Babe, “That’ll do pig”. It’s hard to describe, but attitude is what turns play into “work” for her. And ,she needs the non-fussy praise for a “job” well done.

She is also extremely devoted to my husband…many herding dogs are one person dogs. If I tried to separate her from him at night, she’d lose her mind, she considers part of her “job” to be sticking right by him every minute he is on the premises. When he’s not here, she’s at the window, watching for him to return or lying by the back door so she can be the first one to greet him.

ACD is perfectly quiet at night in our room, she doesn’t keep me up, she would if I tried to keep her out. Is there any reason why your BF’s dog can’t stay with you, even if yours are crated elsewhere?

She is a barker too, a lot! It can be annoying, but I can manage it by thanking her for telling me about whatever, “Good girl, that’s enough”, then saying, “Shhhh, quiet” and treating her when I’ve got her attention and the barking has stopped. If I stay on top of that, she’ll be more quiet, if I ignore it, she’ll keep barking. When I’m working from the house and on conference calls, I often take my calls outside ;).

I love this dog, she’s not the easiest and she’s not for non-dog people, but she is smart and she gives 110% to everything she does, it’s guiding her extensive efforts into a desired or tolerable behavior, and away from one she may have chosen on her own, that makes it so we can live peacefully with her.

[Kate66]

[QUOTE=GaitedGloryRider;6480638]
Give the dog to someone who won’t hit it and lock it in a crate? It’s a freaking BC/Aussie Shepard. I don’t care how much you say the dog has no play drive or doesn’t want a job, I’m not buying it. Perhaps your boyfriend beat him into submission and he doesn’t show it but I’d bet it’s there, to not be defies everything this dog was bred for.

Dog sounds miserable. And I don’t care how sweet your man is to you, anyone that uses violence to train an animal is an asshole.[/QUOTE]

I have a border collie just like the OPs. Mine stays glued to my ankles all day while I work from home. She has no interest in going anywhere that I am not. When we go outside she looks at me like I am a maniac if I throw a stick or ball and then completely ignores it. This is a dog that has never been hit and is as sweet as the day is long. Like the OP I would awake if a feather dropped (blame that on having a seriously preemie baby!) and the dog walking on the wooden floor drove me nuts. I bought a crate, having never, in 30 years of dog ownership had a crate, and the second I opened the door, she looked happy and walked in. Now, during the day, with the crate door open, she wants to just lie in it. I have totally changed my skeptical view of crates, where I used to just think they were cruel. Having said that the only time mine is in, is at night and if we are out for a couple of hours during the day.

Net net, every dog is an individual, so just like so many people say TBs are crazy and BCs need a huge amount of exercise, it’s a massive generalisation and unless you know the OPs dog personally it’s unfair to assume that you know better than the OP on her dog’s personality.

[Kate66]

[QUOTE=Neigh-Neigh;6480894]
One huge hint is being missed here, OP. You, have no doubt told your boyfriend all of this, and he ignores your advise. A man that doesnt take advise from his woman is a man with serious issues. He’s repeating the same behavior with negative feedback from the dog, and from you, and he keeps doing it. Do you NOT see a problem here?

Here’s an idea. Move out. He’s a boyfriend, not a husband. Maybe if you move out, he’ll be willing to look at a different approach to dealing with the dog. If not, well…I guess you know where you rank. Im guessing its down somewhere around where the dog does.[/QUOTE]

Oh seriously… Op’s boyfriend has a training method that we don’t all like. OP has made comments that she doesn’t like it and because he doesn’t follow it he’s some sort of potential problem and she should kick him out?

I tell my husband that I hate his orange shirt. He LOVES his orange shirt. Maybe I should divorce him and kick him out because he’s not doing what I want him to do. OMG, perhaps I rank right down there with the laundry!!!?

Turn this around. On this board, if he was telling her what to do, people would be shouting “he’s controlling!! Kick him out! If he can’t deal with your horses you shouldn’t have anything to do with him!” Sorry OP - you can’t win on this board!

[2tempe]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;6480706]
are you asking how to fix the demand barking or why it works?[/QUOTE]

How to fix…Sorry if I wasn’t clear…

[rockonxox]

Do you take the dog on walks and make sure it is exercised? Have you tried any ways of aleviating anxiety? I always put an old shirt of mine in the kennel with my dog when she was a puppy and that helped her out a lot. You may want to get the help from a personal trainer who can actually meet the dog and determine what the issues are and what can be done. However, Aussie’s can be “barky” dogs so this may be part of his particular personality you just have to deal with.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=Calamber;6480855]
Get him to play with the dog, create games, get down on his hands and knees and crawl around, get the dog to do the same and see if you can get a belly crawl [/QUOTE]

did you read where the dog has no play drive? Or are you just discarding that? A shut down dog, like this one, won’t offer behavior and I’d be .really. surprised if he offered it from observation.

[libgrrl]

@Trakehner;6481015

Discipling dogs. I’m not sure what “scruffing” is…to accentuate who is the boss, grabbing a dog by the side of the face, pushing them slightly back so their front feet are off the ground and making them look you in the eye while giving a low growl is a technique to reinforce “I am the alpha and you are the omega in this pack”. You’re not smacking the dog, but a swat on the butt isn’t going to cripple a dog’s psyche when it’s necessary (e.g. growling at someone, chasing a horse etc.)

Sounds like a fabulous way to get bitten in the face.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=2tempe;6481205]
How to fix…Sorry if I wasn’t clear…[/QUOTE]

all behavior is in response to something, so put an = in the middle.

barking = petting. She has learned that if the initial barking doesn’t work, bark longer. :winkgrin:

If you want to use the sugar cookie approach, you need to insert a behavior between the barking and the petting. Remember, with a senior dog who has practiced this a LONG time, it may take a long time to become reliable about it, and she may still have break through barking. I’d have cookies in my pocket (don’t forget to take them out if you don’t use them all so she doesn’t chew the pocket to get left overs) or I’d have a container of cookies near the door that I could get to quickly.

Walk in the door, Dog barks, ask for a sit (hand cues are tremendously helpful here as she may not hear a verbal cue), and treat. Back up or walk forward 2 steps, ask for a sit, treat. You are inserting sit between the behavior and the cookie.

If you have barking during this, walk back out that door. Remove yourself and your cookies. Count to 5 and come back in.

You can also practice this when you don’t actually leave, as the behavior that elicits the barking is really you walking through the door.

[threedogpack]

showhorsegallery, you have gotten a wide variety of options on how to handle this, and if you want to explore more of what I suggested, make sure that you either contact me privately or you post with my screen name so I know you are directing your post to me.

These kinds of threads always seem to bring out the trainer in everyone and I just don’t want to argue about the merits of one training approach vs another with the exception below.

the only thing I will add at this point is in reference to the e-collar someone suggested. If your dog is already anxious and unsure, plus he is shut down, the e-collar will likely make him more anxious. You can, of course, handle the dog however you choose, but I would never use an e-collar on a frightened dog.

Good luck to you, I hope that eventually you will let us know what you tried, and how the dog is doing.

[wendy]

the only thing I will add at this point is in reference to the e-collar someone suggested. If your dog is already anxious and unsure, plus he is shut down, the e-collar will likely make him more anxious. You can, of course, handle the dog however you choose, but I would never use an e-collar on a frightened dog.

ditto. In order to cure barking, you have to know why the dog barks- and this dog barks because the poor thing is a terrified, anxious mess because he’s owned by an abusive person. Most likely the no-bark collar will stop the barking, but may cause the dog to have a total meltdown and express the anxiety in other, even more unpleasant (for the owners) ways, such as hysterical destructive outbursts.

The first step would be to let the poor dog out of the crate- why anyone would even consider locking a full trained adult dog up in a crate is a puzzlement to me. Crates are training tools, and once the dog is trained, the crate needs to go bye-bye. The dog is anxious, and locking the dog up far away from the people is just adding to the anxiety. Anything that reduces the dog’s anxiety is likely to reduce the barking.

You could try simple things like not beating the dog, a thundershirt, DAP, lots of exercise, a consistent schedule- all of these simple steps are likely to reduce the dog’s anxiety. If the source of the dog’s anxiety was unknown, drugs might be useful, but we know the cause- the abusive owner. So getting rid of the abuse makes more sense than drugging the dog.

Whomever suggested classical conditioning is on the right track- the feeding the dog treats is classical conditioning, to change the dog’s underlying mental state. Like Pavlov’s drooling dogs. It works best if you know what is triggering the behavior and you can start treating before the dog starts barking.

But these people won’t do this- the dog’s owner thinks beating is the way to train dogs, and the OP was actually willing to stand there and watch someone physically abuse a dog right in front of her, plus she seems very un-sympathetic towards the poor abused dog. Rehoming all of the dogs now might be the best solution for the dogs. Get them away from the abuse.