I have a two year old colt who is extremely needle shy. He will stand quietly for the vet until the needle comes out, but will then start to spin and rear. When he had his vaccinations in the fall, we had to blindfold him so that he couldn’t anticipate when the needle was going to prick him. But then he freaked out as soon as he felt it go in. He is also extremely sensitive about having his mane pulled, but is really laid back and easy going for everything else (wound care, feet trimming, bathing, worming, trailering, etc.). I have had trainers tell me that he might just be a sensitive horse to those things and that I’ll just have to deal with it. Their advice was to ignore it as best as possible. Has anyone had any success with working their horse out of this problem? Or do I take their advice and hope that he grows out of it?
The more you handle the horse, the more he’s going to relax and quit anticipating. However, some of them do know who the vet us and recognize the situation when the needle is coming out. Perhaps it’s the only man they see? Perhaps it’s the fact a stranger is prodding and poking while you watch? They do get more relaxed with age and more visits but you can see their perception of possible harm.
My most competent vets could slip the needle in without making any unusual motions or drawing attention to their hands, with IM shots they quickly get the needle in with what looks like a pat, then come back and attach the syringe and inject. With IV injections, they don’t come from the front holding the thing out in their hands, which I see newer vets do. Instead they stand beside the shoulder stroking the, conversing with you then step forward staying close to the body, find the vein and get it done out if the horses direct line of sight.
I once had what turned out to be an impaction in a just turned 3y/o filly, vet that came was the back up guy. He was scared of her…had a hell of a time getting a needle in, scared her as bad as he was. Never used him again…,sometimes its not the horse, it’s the vets body language and (lack of) technique. Next time tell the vet the horse is scared, vet should be willing to take a little more time and care. If not? Get another vet.
What I do (and I raise young horses) is to put a twitch on them asap BEFORE they get nervous or scared about the vet coming in to vaccinate. The horse stands quietly with no drama and the vet can quickly and easily get the job done. Does not take long for the horse to realize that needle sticks are not that painful if they cooperate. Mine gradually get better and better about needles (I do a good bit of my own vaccines and under vet advise can even give IV injections, was equine vet tech for several years) to the point that I can usually give IM injections without even a halter on and give IV injections by myself, no twitch. Only with the IN vaccines that I use do I still have to use a twitch, IN vaccines are just rude but necessary IMO.
I train my young horses to bend their neck towards the shot. A tight muscle has more discomfort of the shot…a loose muscle does not. See how you can flex the horses head to get the release. Next, I will not use a young or assertive vet that puts off bad vibes, used one once…and it terrified two of my horses. I have good horses and they tolerate everything well, because I have trained them.
As far as training one to tolerate discomfort, and it very well could be an extra sensitive horse…I use a tooth pick. I place the tooth pick on the horse and hold it softly until I get a release, if you can bend the horse towards the toothpick, better yet. You can treat the horse if needed as well once it relaxes and stands. Any movement or head shake, i do not release the pressure. It’s a bit of a cowboy thing, you need to keep the horse bent towards you if at all possible. They can really throw a fit. It might take ten plus sessions. I keep upping the pressure, until they learn the only way I go away is to stand there and tolerate the discomfort. I use treats if needed, and essentially its desensitizing them and retraining the response of wanting to get away. I have retrained a couple of horses in the last few years. It’s tough, it can be dangerous, and it takes ALOT of time. I tell people that horses can learn to accept some things that they may not like, shots, clipping, bathes, having ears touched, etc. I do not believe in drugs or twitches…but by all means will use them if absoultey necessary for my safety or my vets. I will also use them in some of the training sessions. You can eventually use a needle instead of the toothpick, I use it very softly, wait for a flex and acceptance and remove it. You must be careful though. Good luck, and training is two yo is better than a ten yo.
Findeight[quote]My most competent vets could slip the needle in without making any unusual motions or drawing attention to their hands, with IM shots they quickly get the needle in with what looks like a pat, then come back and attach the syringe and inject. With IV injections, they don’t come from the front holding the thing out in their hands, which I see newer vets do. Instead they stand beside the shoulder stroking the, conversing with you then step forward staying close to the body, find the vein and get it done out if the horses direct line of sight.[quote]
I do the same for the few IM shots I give. Carefully detach needle, pop it in and then check for blood which will show up in lumen of needle. attach syringe, double check for blood quickly, inject and gone. If as rarely happens, you get blood, do not totally remove needle, just back it out a little, redirect the angle. It is popping it through the skin that they feel.
[QUOTE=RTF;7960831]
I train my young horses to bend their neck towards the shot. A tight muscle has more discomfort of the shot…a loose muscle does not. See how you can flex the horses head to get the release. Next, I will not use a young or assertive vet that puts off bad vibes, used one once…and it terrified two of my horses. I have good horses and they tolerate everything well, because I have trained them.
As far as training one to tolerate discomfort, and it very well could be an extra sensitive horse…I use a tooth pick. I place the tooth pick on the horse and hold it softly until I get a release, if you can bend the horse towards the toothpick, better yet. You can treat the horse if needed as well once it relaxes and stands. Any movement or head shake, i do not release the pressure. It’s a bit of a cowboy thing, you need to keep the horse bent towards you if at all possible. They can really throw a fit. It might take ten plus sessions. I keep upping the pressure, until they learn the only way I go away is to stand there and tolerate the discomfort. I use treats if needed, and essentially its desensitizing them and retraining the response of wanting to get away. I have retrained a couple of horses in the last few years. It’s tough, it can be dangerous, and it takes ALOT of time. I tell people that horses can learn to accept some things that they may not like, shots, clipping, bathes, having ears touched, etc. I do not believe in drugs or twitches…but by all means will use them if absoultey necessary for my safety or my vets. I will also use them in some of the training sessions. You can eventually use a needle instead of the toothpick, I use it very softly, wait for a flex and acceptance and remove it. You must be careful though. Good luck, and training is two yo is better than a ten yo.[/QUOTE]
Amen on teaching them young and carefully.
RTF, have you ever had one that was fine with the toothpick and still flipped - almost literally - when you switched to a real needle and syringe? My 16 YO guy went through a series of penicillin shots and is now violently opposed to actual injections. He doesn’t care WHAT I do with a toothpick on a syringe, he can feel the difference between the toothpick and a needle. He’ll shift around but tolerate a bare needle going in, will even let you pet around the needle. But once you bring up a syringe to attach, or a syringe with a needle not a toothpick, or try to blind his eye, the war is engaged. He knows exactly what he dislikes - the meds going in - and reacts violently only to that. Run backwards and rear straight up reacts, and stands quiet as soon as you get back out of vaccination range.
I leave my vet to do shots - it takes either a pair of heavyset vets or a stiff dose of Dormosedan to get him vaccinated without endangering the vet.
You will probably have to do a desensitization routine with him. I had a needlephobe and she was horrible from the day she was born. Twitching only made it worse in the long run.
I did this: http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/49/How%20to%20Injection%20Shyness.pdf
and it worked. It’s unlikely that he will just get better on his own.
Yes, this is handled by the vet and his techniques. If the Vet is unable to manage this, you need a new vet.
With this issue I’ve had good results covering the eye with my hand on the side where the injection is being given. Not as overwhelming as a complete blind fold.
I had one. I took him to the vet and had him stand in the stocks for his routine shots. After a couple of years of realizing he couldn’t get away, he now just tolerates it. He still gets a bit nervous about it, but he’s no longer a asshat about it.
[QUOTE=Hilary;7961070]
You will probably have to do a desensitization routine with him. I had a needlephobe and she was horrible from the day she was born. Twitching only made it worse in the long run.
I did this: http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/49/How%20to%20Injection%20Shyness.pdf
and it worked. It’s unlikely that he will just get better on his own.[/QUOTE]
I recently saw this article and have been starting the desensitizing process. At this point, my colt will mostly stand still when I grab a fold of skin on his neck and hold. That used to set him off anticipating the needle. Now, I have progressed to holding the skin and placing a syringe (without the needle, of course!) in the fold like I am going to stick him. After a few tries, he calms down but stays wary and watchful. I haven’t put the toothpick in the syringe, but it sounds like that will be next on my list. My fear is that as soon as the vet shows up and sticks him for real, we will be back to square one. I’m sure it will just take time and patience. I definitely don’t want to go the twitch route. I feel like that will just make him more anxious about the whole experience.
Some horses are overly sensitive, and some have reasons to be needle shy and mane pulling shy. When I bought Cloudy in 2001, I had him chipped down in Florida while I was boarding him there. The next weekend, the staff at that barn said that the vet had not given him a local at the site, and that the vet had put the chip in his mane too low. OK so for years Cloudy was needle shy and mane pulling shy because of that. Plus, he has sensitive pink skin over 50% of his body, including his neck and mane, so he doesn’t like to be touched or brushed. He got over his needle shyness by getting his tranq every time he got/gets shod. He loves his dope. But I still cut his mane with “pinking shears” instead of pulling it as at one barn the owner gave him Ace every time she pulled his mane. (And putting my hand over his eye just made him know that he was going to get stuck. Holding up a front leg did provide the ability to give him shots, though.)
So be patient. Use an oral tranq that you can buy in a paste until your colt gets over his needle shyness. It may take years as it did with my horse, but it will happen sooner or later. Vet can now put any needles in his neck without a twitch. (Callie would stand there without a halter and allow needles to be stuck into her but she had spent 3 yrs on the track, so she was good with needles. Hattie never had a bad experience with needles so she is fine, and when I had her chipped the vet here used a local before he chipped her.)
[QUOTE=zorion;7960721]
…Their advice was to ignore it as best as possible. Has anyone had any success with working their horse out of this problem? Or do I take their advice and hope that he grows out of it?[/QUOTE]
He won’t grow out of it. Very bad advice. Evasions and phobias tend to get worse as the animal (including people) ages.
I found this excellent article on retraining a horse to accept vet procedures. Well worth the time to read and print.
http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/equinebehavior/FAQ/terrible.htm
[B]For gaining compliance with any procedure or manipulation, it is useful to consider that the job requires sending three basic messages to the horse:
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The procedure doesn’t really hurt (that much).
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Ordinary resistance or reasonable reaction will not stop the procedure.
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Tolerance of the manipulation can lead to a reward.[/B]
some years ago I had a PPE done on 8 yr old horse. Watched the vet - her own vet - hold the halter in one hand, needle to draw blood in the other and trot around the stall with her. He hit the vein first time, passed the vial to the PPE vet.
I passed on the mare for several reasons, but this was one of them.
I have a horse that is a nut about her body and was horrible about shots. Believe it or not letting her eat grain was the ticket. Most horses will ignore anything with their nose in a bucket. Try it.
I have a horse like this who has gotten more difficult with time. It is not due to a lack of skill by the vets and even at times when she could not see and had no reason to expect a needle, she has reacted violently to them. I think it’s fair to say it really does hurt her and is a very honest reaction.
Our solution is dormosedan. It works. But even with dormosedan AND covering her eyes, she is still mildly reactive to the needle going in - akin to a normal unsedated horse. IIRC, the last time the vet also used some sort of local anesthetic when she had to do several, and that was very helpful.
Desensitization certainly can only help. I have vets feed this horse a carrot if they come for someone else, and the toothpick idea and/or having unneedled syringes around would be helpful for making the horse less tense and expecting pain.
All of my other horses are mellow and very fine about injections. One thing about this kind of fear/reaction is that it is probably not ‘rational’ and thus not something that you can just fix by being firm and allowing no evasion. Somewhere in the horse’s lizard brain, the connection gets made that this pain represents a threat to his very life, and he will fight with all 1000 lbs to survive, making the situation extremely dangerous. That association can be fixed, but if you proceed by trying to make do and fight with it, it’s just all the more likely that the needle will hurt, and a lot, reinforcing all the problem you have now.
If you can create a situation that is similar and induces the fear response, you can use clicker training to overlay the old information. Clicker training also goes right to the amygdala and is the best way to build a new pattern. It will take some time that your vet won’t have, so the challenge is finding someone else who can help you with it.
[QUOTE=zorion;7960721]
I have a two year old colt who is extremely needle shy. He will stand quietly for the vet until the needle comes out, but will then start to spin and rear. When he had his vaccinations in the fall, we had to blindfold him so that he couldn’t anticipate when the needle was going to prick him. But then he freaked out as soon as he felt it go in. He is also extremely sensitive about having his mane pulled, but is really laid back and easy going for everything else (wound care, feet trimming, bathing, worming, trailering, etc.). I have had trainers tell me that he might just be a sensitive horse to those things and that I’ll just have to deal with it. Their advice was to ignore it as best as possible. Has anyone had any success with working their horse out of this problem? Or do I take their advice and hope that he grows out of it?[/QUOTE]
Pinch his neck and give him a treat about a hundred times and he’ll get over it. Start small by first standing as if you were a vet going to give him a shot, but give him a treat instead. Then pinch him a tiny bit and give him a treat. Increase the pressure of the pinch and keep giving treats. I swear it works. But you really have to hold your arms up and act like you are giving him a needle so when the vet does it, he is not alarmed by the body position. Have several different people come in and mimic the vet as well so he doesn’t associate the treats with only you.
I know a breeder that does this with all foals and never has a problem with needles. Comes in very handy during an emergency.
But I will add that I once had a horse who would KICK YOUR BRAINS IN if you tried to take her temperature. I meant to work with her on it, but never got around to it and fortunately she was healthy as a horse for the year I had her. I did tell her new owners when I sold her, though. Wasn’t sure how I was going to solve the problem, other than desensitizing and having a helper give her treats.
I am always amazed when people say, with age a horse will get better. They don’t, with training, education and experience they will get better. That’s why I had a ten yo needle shy horse sent to me for training, she never got better from the time she was a weanling. I look at vaccinations in the same way as trailer loading. Once a week, do the desentization on the horse with the needle, do it until you and the horse are crazy bored of it. I get out my trailer a couple times a year, and every horse here gets loaded and unloaded as a refresher…even if they will never go anywhere. Do not wait for your vet to come out, your vets job is not to teach your horse acceptance of vet procedures. That’s how vets get hurt, I like my vets and want them safe.
I did have a horse, that had allergic reactions to vaccines that would react to the medication. He never had issues with needles, but after having routine vaccines and reactions to them, I stopped vaccinating him in his early teens. The last time he was vaccinated, I thought he was going to die, so it was not just a bump on the neck.
I am amazed at people who expect the vet to just deal with it when a 1200 lb horse is out of control for an injection. Vets are not magicians. They have techniques to get the job done, but it is the owner’s job to train the horse. If your horse colics and he won’t tolerate injections, doesn’t load in a trailer, won’t let anyone take his temperature, etc, he won’t survive. It is better to train him.
When I got my horse as a 4 year old, he hated injections. After doing the desensitization protocol, he is fine. I show him the needle, he gives me a pained look, and then he holds very still for me.
I agree that it is definitely not the vet’s job to teach the horse to accept the procedures. I am lucky that I have a vet who has been around forever and has a very gentle and patient demeanor, but I don’t want him to have to deal with this problem if I can help it. That’s why I’m getting input and beginning the desensitizing process. For those of you who have done the desensitizing, how frequently did you work with the horse? Once a week? Or was it more frequent than that?
