Neuro Horse, Maybe?

[vxf111]

The other thread is informative about the many pre-existing issues this horse has (a chip in his neck, for example, that was there when the OP bought him, two spinal processes that were close on older x-rays, a history of muscle wasting and being disunited through the corners, etc.) that are relevant to answering the question of what it makes sense to do NOW. Some folks responding on this thread might respond differently if they knew some of these other facts about the horse.

I think we all hope you can get to the bottom of this, OP. But it doesn’t sound like you’re interested in that (or that you’re yet ready to accept that that’s what needs to happen). You just want to keep trying things and hoping that this is an innocuous problem that can easily be resolved without further diagnostics or spending money to drill down on the issue. In the last thread you thought your current vet was great. Now you think she’s a money grubber. Your old trainer was awful. Now your current trainer is scared of the horse. The old boarding situation was bad. Now this new one doesn’t have what he needs. I don’t mean this in a mean way but you sound pretty green to dealing with equine veterinary issues and like you’re either not getting good advice or not listening to it. I understand that it’s nice to cling to that hope that some hillwork will make this go away. I’m just not sure how realistic that is.

[blue_heron]

Agree that the other thread was extremely informative wrt what’s been done. That’s why I think it’s confusing that there’s a new thread. It doesn’t preserve the information as the OP intends.

We’ve all had a horse we can’t figure out, OP. It’s incredibly frustrating and at times heartbreaking. The truth is with the NQR horses, as others have mentioned, is that sometimes you spend $$$ to figure out what’s wrong with them and you still may never figure it out. Dishonest people may pass on the NQR horse to someone else because they don’t want to deal with it anymore. If you’re willing to front the money, Tufts is your best option in your area. You could also retire him if he can maintain a good QOL, or if his condition worsens and he seems depressed as you have mentioned, there are other options to consider as well. I’m so sorry there aren’t any answers for you right now.

[vxf111]

It’s a terrible situation to be in having a horse that’s NQR and no answers. But as painful (and expensive) as it can be to get those answers, that’s the only way to move on. Stabs in the dark are unlikely to get you to a real answer.

[middleton.the.grey]

He was sold by owner 2 to owner 3 because of the buck. That was never hidden and both parties were very open about it. He used to be ridden by the master, a 70 year old and his wife who has brain damage and is impaired. The people I bought him from are very good friends and they were 100% honest about everything they delt with. Middleton is funny about dogs, he is with the barn dogs when they get really close to his legs/under him. That is why he was unsuccessful as a masters horse constantly being with the hounds. As a non masters horse, just going in the hunt he was fine as long as horses weren’t running into him and bumping him. He was always sound but they have a business in selling horses and couldn’t keep him. That’s when I bought him. Up until January he was fine, now all of a sudden there are a plethora of issues according to this fancy vet. As I keep saying, I will be looking into an evaluation from a different vet.

[vxf111]

This is as classic of a “time to haul to the big teaching hospital/major veterinary clinic” situation as I can think of. I am not sure how much more help any of us can be when you’re not even sure whether the details you share are true or not. I don’t say this to be mean but you’re kind of all over the place. Sometimes you believe 100% what people tell you. Sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you later decide some of it is not true. Sometimes the facts seem to change. He’s neuro, then he’s not. He never bucked before, now he’s bucked with all owners. He had a clean vetting, but then actually he has a bone chip in his neck that came up on your PPE. He’s got muscle wasting, no really he’s just thin. It’s a back issue, then it’s not, then it is again. You tell us stuff and then you tell is that’s not true and then you tell us new facts and then you walk back some of that and then you go off in another direction… when people give you advice you like, you jump all over it and the details change. None of us have crystal balls and what you really want are good diagnostic tools now, not more random guesses. I say this as someone with no vested interest but who just wants you to get answers so you can help your horse-- go to Tufts (or a similar clinic).

[middleton.the.grey]

It is very interesting that you say that because…that is almost exactly Middleton. We struggled a lot with saddle fit since getting him. I have now bought him a custom saddle because nothing was fitting. It is arriving in April so between now and then I got nothing. His previous saddles I couldn’t say because I don’t know. This all started because he was showing back soreness, back in May when I bought him. After riding I would get him out the next day and his back was sore, we tried so many second hand saddles I couldn’t even tell you. Saddle fit was what I first went to, before a vet was even considered. If it hurts to become round and lift under the saddle he will be inverted and if his core isn’t strong, he is a big horse and that will create pain and strain on everything. Once the back is out, all sorts of other things start going too. I know that the people I bought him from had a custom saddle on him. The PPE vet even told me that a custom/well fitting saddle is imperative for him. I think that my hesitation to go gang busters with investigation into neuro is that I am not looking at a “blank slate” of a horse. He is very weak and doesn’t have a well fitting saddle so that is going to skew any evaluation thereof. Thank you for bringing this up. The one thing that my trainer keeps saying is that the buck is pain. Thank you😊

[middleton.the.grey]

Ya, he wasn’t intended to be used as a field hunter, the people I bought him from were the first truly field hunter situation he was in. As a masters horse he didn’t like being so close around the hounds so that was kind of the start and end of his hunting career. I talked extensively to the owners and they made it very clear that the only reason they were moving him on was that the master did not want to take the time to acclimate him to the hounds. That have a business and couldn’t afford to do it for him. So they decided to sell him and they recommended a competition home.

[outside_leg]

Go to Tufts.

I also wouldn’t ride a horse that is even questionably neuro. Way too dangerous. And I’m speaking from experience, having put one of my former horses down for EPM. Even when your saddle comes, don’t ride him. Don’t ask a pro to ride him.

Go to Tufts. Get actual answers. We’ve sent four horses there for different issues because I hate drawn out diagnostics and chasing mysteries. Get a bone scan, do another neuro exam, whatever they recommend. You’ll get an answer. It may suck, but at least you’ll know what you’re dealing with.

Best of luck!

[middleton.the.grey]

He was masters horse first and then, since his daughter is who I bought him from, trains/sells horses to competition or pleasure/hunting homes she took over the reins (because of his reaction to the hounds) and he was ridden in the hunt but at the back of the pack and he loved that. But, she couldn’t afford him as another personal horse as she has to sustain her business. She doesn’t just deal in field hunters, she does a lot with competition horses as well. It was her fathers horse and she had too many other horses as re-sells or as client horses to focus on a “personal” horse.

[middleton.the.grey]

IIronically it was week two on the Marquis, that he had the explosive reaction under saddle. He did have Lyme last year and was treated, we tested his blood work for Lyme as well and he came back completely negative. I will be going to Tufts and seek further information.

[middleton.the.grey]

I agree, I think there most certainly can be more influencing factors as he has had quite a significant lifestyle change.

[Spud_amp_Saf]

I think what might be getting past you, OP, is that arthritis of the spine can present as neurological, as well, as it can interrupt or impinge on the nerve pathways.

If your horse didn’t improve on Marquis and is still showing neurological symptoms and bucking, these may be associated with the cervical arthritis and kissing spines previously identified on imaging.

I would be looking at re imaging those areas to see what is going on.

Regardless of the cause of the neurological deficits, any horse presenting with these is not safe to be ridden.

[middleton.the.grey]

I wanted to start the new thread because I wanted to focus more so on the recent updates regarding the Marquis and the other opinions of the vet. If my trainer doesnt want to deal with him because she is scared he might be neuro (her words saying “might be”) then I understand, but she needs to be more open. Apparently there have been conversations about treatments that I was not informed of at all. I am not ok with that and as time goes on you get to know people more. When I said that something is missing, I mean his character has less spark than before. It’s like an acceptance and he doesn’t seem as happy as he was.

[middleton.the.grey]

I agree and we will be doing that instead of wasting anymore time

[Bristol_Bay]

@Xctrygirl posted a video on another neuro thread that I think you should take a look at. Maybe she can repost it here.

Also, suspecting EPM and not testing for it, but treating for it instead is completely ridiculous. It’s the first thing any competent vet rules out.

[middleton.the.grey]

Another reason why I created this new thread was that this new vet, said that what I had been told was a bone chip, she said was severe arthritis. How they can be so different I don’t understand, I don’t have experience with neck x-rays. Of course I want to get to the bottom of it. I am trying my best. I also think that issues like saddle fit and lack of strength have been over looked as influences on how he moves and acts and in that case am refraining from huge expenditures in diagnostics because those are big influences. As to liking the vet and now not liking the vet, the other thread was after my first ever meeting with this vet Now that I have actually delt with the vet and talked to other people who delt with her and have leaned that they are not nearly as good as I was lead to believe. As far as my trainer being concerned about riding my horse, he has almost gotten her off and he has an unknown issue so it is understandable. Time effects your opinion on things. I couldn’t know what this new situation would bring before being involved in it, that’s impossible. You learn as you go and that’s what has happened in the month that has elapsed since the last thread. I think it is very hopeful, but reasonable for me to cling to the saddle fit and strengthening will alleviate it, but there is not harm in hoping that those things will give me and another vet an actual picture of what to look at. I will look into getting an actual neuro specialist but I won’t be throwing my bank account at the next DVM that is recommended to me.

[middleton.the.grey]

I agree, the stabs in dark were following the advice of this vet. I am pursing the Tufts option. I am done with this the vet. All she did was give me expensive grief and never gave me any answers.

[middleton.the.grey]

Yes, but I feel like a lot of people are crtisizing me about following the advice of a vet when I assumed that was what you are supposed to do. I try to keep it all in order but its a lot of details that you really have to be involved in person to understand, im sorry its confusing, I am doing my best to keep it in order

[Bristol_Bay]

@Bristol_Bay

@Xctrygirl posted a video on another neuro thread that I think you should take a look at. Maybe she can repost it here.

Also, suspecting EPM and not testing for it, but treating for it instead is completely ridiculous. It’s the first thing any competent vet rules out.

Never mind—it was your other thread.

Derp.

[middleton.the.grey]

He doesn’t have KS, I said the vertebrae were close but not touching. It still may effect him, but it is within normal limits. We have treated using the Marquis and we injected what the vet said is the arthritis. I am in no place to believe this vet however, after certain things I have now learned about how the practice operates. I will be getting a qualified opinion.