I would love to PM you more about the vet you had this experience with, I will not share anything from it but it seems eerily similar
Itâs unlikely to be the same vet since I believe weâre in different countries. Youâre still free to PM me if you feel that there might be anything I can help you with, though.
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Once you do all the diagnostics and rule literally everything else out, you are left with a working diagnosis of EDM. In addition to mild neurologic deficits, his background, behavior patterns, etc were very typical for EDM.
But correct, you cannot definitively diagnosis prior to post-mortem.
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ok, that was what I was remembering, thank you for clarifying. I really, really hope that I find a resolution and it is not EDM. I am sorry you went through that.
the test was a CRP ( c reactive protein) test, his number was 35. the test is considered to be less than 16 is normal and above 16 is elevated, the number was higher in perspective to the test then I remembered so it is labeled as elevated as it is greater than 16. It was also done with a SAG test SAG 1, SAG 5, and SAG 6, he came back negative and a 2 for all those.
I really really donât mean this to be mean but you sound a little naĂŻve, like you have bad people guiding you, and you donât really know that much about veterinary medicine (maybe just enough to convince yourself you do). So as a result youâre all over the place and itâs FRUSTRATING for those of us who are replying and TRYING TO HELP.
The horse is neurological. He needs to go to a clinic with all the diagnostic tools. Full sentence. Full stop. End of story. Every time you post about getting a âneuro vet outâ or putting him in harder work or checking saddle fit etc. etc. it shows you either arenât listening or donât understand. Nobody here is out to get you. Nobody thinks youâre a bad person. Nobody thinks you donât care. But it does seem like you donât listen.
If you want to get to the bottom of this, take him to a clinic. Stop trying this that and the other. Stop asking people what their horse had wrong with itâit doesnât matter. Stop talking about bringing a âneuro vetâ to your barn. You donât need someone to come to you. You need to take this horse to where the DIAGNOSTIC TOOLS and the best vets are. That is Tufts (or an equivalent clinic). Every thing you do that is something OTHER than this is a step away from getting to the bottom of what is wrong rather than a step towards it, and thatâs whatâs so frustrating. You have been told this multiple times and you say you understand and agree and then⊠three sentences later youâre planning to do something else. You know what vets you can trust? The ones at Tufts. JUST GO THERE.
You started the PEMF thread 1/16. You were told âtake this horse to a clinic for a full workup.â You didnât listen. You threw some darts instead. After being told that wouldnât help. It didnât. Now itâs a month and a half later and you start a new thread. The horse is demonstrably WORSE. You are told the same thing âtake this horse to a clinic for a full workup.â And yet your responses indicate⊠youâre considering throwing some more darts. Can you see why thatâs frustrating to people who have no motive whatsoever but to see you and your horse get a proper diagnosis and be on the path to wellness (if thatâs possible)?
What motive do ANY of us on this thread have but to HELP you? And why ask if youâre not able/willing to LISTEN?
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Close but not touching can still cause symptomology. Sometimes, it doesnât matter what the x-rays say - every horse has its own presentation that you have to work off of. Some horses with horrific x-rays are perfectly sound, others have not so bad x-rays but show a larger degree of discomfort. There is no placebo or somatic effect with horses - if he is exhibiting pain, he feels pain. If he his exhibiting neurological deficits, there are neurological deficits.
Also, things can change - arthritis is a degenerative condition, and the longer the horse is not in proper work using its abs and rounding its back, the closer together those spinal processes will get and what wasnât touching/symptomatic may very well become quite bothersome.
I hope that your horse is not neuro - I had one that became neuro due to EPM with degenerative changes superimposed on top and it was a very hard decision as to what to do with him, after a long road of NQR lameness and other psychological issues.
I wish you the best of luck in getting to the bottom of whatever is going on with him and I hope you keep us all updated with his progress/diagnoses.
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Hi OP, I think one of your last updates in the other thread was that the thing one vet told you was a bone chip in his neck was actually advanced arthritis. That can be no problem or a mild problem until one day itâs a big problem. I think that is where you start, and I agree that you should go to a big hospital with experts in neurology, internal medicine and sports medicine.
I had a client with a lovely advanced beginner safe kind of low level hunter. I hacked this horse for years because the owner often traveled for work. All of a sudden he started bolting. And sometimes bucking. And showing various other neuro symptoms that would come and go. I was afraid to ride some days not because I couldnât sit and correct the bolt (I could), but I felt like some days if it werenât for my riding skill, he might not stay upright. Sometimes things changed midway through a light flat from fine to not fine.
He had a deformity at C6-7 and arthritis in several other joints in the neck. They tried treating it, but it was not effective. I was not impressed with how the ownerâs vet was handling it, and the owner had to relocate for work to the east. I nearly begged the owners to take him to New Bolton after they got settled in their move. The recommendation was to retire immediately. He remained pasture sound-ish for a little while but deteriorated pretty quickly. Theyâd owned this horse for over a decade and provided top care, custom saddles, good nutrition and farrier care. Iâm sure heâd been compensating for a long time, and suddenly he was having episodes of compression, and that freaked him out (and may well have been painful also).
I donât think that you were sold a suitable horse, and your PPE vet should have communicated the neck issue more clearly and correctly to you. But that aside, it is quite possible that heâs just gotten past the point of no return and that may or may not have been accelerated by the care and training he had (likely not that much). Neck injections do work for some cases but not all. I donât blame your trainer for not wanting to ride.
I think if you spend a day and get a complete workup from vets who have more specialized knowledge in necks, can interpret his bloodwork, etc. then that would be the clearest path towards a diagnosis (of which he may have a few) and figuring out if there is a treatment plan or if he can no longer be safe as a riding horse.
Itâs really quite serious, because when a big horse loses control of his body, itâs dangerous for all involved. This is why people are stressing the hospital approach.
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I sincerely hope that you didnât take away from my post that I thought you did not care. I specifically said that itâs clear that you care very much for Middleton and are willing to spare no expense.
I know how tough it can be to question the âprofessionalsâ around you. I made that mistake with my horse. He came in from the field quite lame. Heâd never been known as particularly stoic so when our regular vet, very old school & actually preferred to do repro work, said heâs just strained his knee, give him some time off and see where we are at. I did. He came back ok. Until a year later when he was off again on the knee. The films showed quite a large spur and I was told by same vet that he was going need a much lighter workload. I took him to the university vet school, they said there was no reason not to attempt to remove it, and in the process of removing it found a large chip in the joint that was likely causing the bulk of the issues as the joint showed no wear from the spur and likely had happened the year before. I felt terrible that I did not more aggressively seek out a definitive diagnosis the previous year. But as you said, hindsight is 20/20.
So heâs sound - fast forward 18 months - I sent him to a trainer acquaintance to get sold over the Florida season. He didnât (thatâs a whole other nightmare story), and by the end of the summer, the compensating heâd done for years for the knee (among some other factors surrounding the situation that I should have resolved) resulted in in laminitis with some rotation in the opposing leg. He rehabs from that, trainer starts him back way too fast and blows a rear suspensory. On a horse that never had a suspensory issue every in his whole career.
I sent him to get sold and now get to fund his retirement 1000 miles away. Heâd never hold up to a long trip on the knee so heâs at a retirement farm in Ocala. And my animals tend to live forever, so Iâm likely going to be paying for him longer than I got to ride and enjoy him.
See, there I go wandering off topic.
Please carefully consider what kind of work you want to use to strengthen him. Until you have him evaluated by a neuro team, Iâd probably avoid riding. If heâs having a bad day, a rider could unbalance him enough that both go down and someone, horse and/or human, could get hurt.
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I have been trying to do what is best by my horse without alienating the barn owner, my trainer and the vet totally. I know now that the vet was not working in my best interests. I donât have the independence to put him in a trailer I donât own and take him to Tufts. I kept getting told that the issue could be resolved and that taking him to Tufts was unnecessary. I am trying to do best by everyone but my horse comes first and if I have to step on some toes at this point I will. I do have to be smart with the money I spend and it will be expensive to get him there. I am going to keep on top of things and believe me I am sorry you find this frustrating, I am putting down what I am getting as feedback from vet, so you are feeling a bit of what I am receiving on my end. Everything all over the place.
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OP please heed the great advice youâve been given and get your horse to Tufts or the equivalent.
Not to add to your burden, but you should also consider having your horse scoped for Ulcers.
Both stomach and hindgut .
Some problems can present with similar symptoms.
Not wanting to canter could be neurological but it is also indicative of ulcers.
When you consider the previous lack of care, improper nutrition, very little turnout and unresolved pain Iâd be surprised if he doesnât have ulcers.
I hope you can get to the root of the problem.
I feel for you and your horse. You were both let down .
Good luck
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I donât blame my trainer for feeling skiddish about riding him. The vet has a reputation for abandoning helping clients if the injection (steroidal) doesnât work. I am not going to waste anymore time with this vet, the dart throwing diagnostics was the path the vet pushed for, she thought Tufts was over the top for the issue and that she would have no problem fixing it. Clearly, not true.
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Just a reminder,
There are 3 Equine Neurologists in the USA.
Dr. Amy Johnson at New Bolton Center in Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
Dr. Steve Reed at Rood & Riddle in Lexington, Ky
and
Dr. Monica Aleman at UC Davis in Northern California.
Boarded internal medicine clinicians all have many capabilities as well, but overall the best of the best are listed above.
Emily
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I was not referring to any one poster and certainly not you, you were very kind and considerate and I genuinely appreciated your reply. I was referring to sometimes criticism is read differently when typed than what is intended.
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Thank you, I didnât consider ulcers but I am definitely intrigued. He is a worrier and he does internalize a lot of his stress and anxiety. Thank you very much, I am ashamed to say I didnât consider it. Thanks for your comment!
Any good field vet or trainer would suggest a referral out to an equine hospital or academic center with all these things going on and no success in treating. It sounds like you need new people asap.
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is there any way to get a quote about seeing Dr. Johnson, she is closest so would be who we would go see for pure neurology. I also appreciate that she has experience with EDM as terrifying as that is, it is a technical possibility at this time
Yep.
Email me at ewd@upenn.edu.
I can provide whatever you need.
Em
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Not me personally but barnmates have used her. She is wonderful. If itâs feasible to ship to New Bolton you really canât do better. Gold standard.
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Please donât feel ashamed.
Believe me, there was a lot I didnât know about horses when I bought mine.
One hears of common ailments like colic or laminitis.
But ulcers , kissing spine , EPM , EDM , PSSM,
I had never heard of.
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