Neuro Horse, Maybe?

[greywithchrome]

@vxf111

sometimes staggering and having trouble just walking straight

This was in the other thread, right? OP clarified that they were actually saying their horse does NOT do that. That would 100% be a neuro giveaway IMO.

@middleton.the.grey

he made mistakes in the neuro

@middleton.the.grey

When nothing was improving in two weeks she came back and sung about how he would need injections to actually solve the issue and give us a better picture and answers

What tests? What mistakes? This is so vague. I agree that this vet seems to be throwing shit at a wall to see what sticks. There is a sports med vet in my area that put me through the same ringer. Injection after injection without actually finding the cause of the problem.

You mentioned many times in this thread that the saddle fits badly. This will cause atrophied muscle and be hard to fix in the long run. The saddle fit, along with the narrowing spine columns, could definitely be causing the bucking. At the end of the day, regardless of the issue, this horse should not be ridden right now, at all. You will likely have to do extensive work in hand to fix the damage done by the saddle/rider.

Definitely get a second opinion on this horse. I am NOT discouraging getting a neuro vet to look at this horse. You absolutely should, because it is an important thing to rule out. I wasn’t trying to be difficult with my comment, I was genuinely curious because this didn’t present as obviously neuro to me.

[CBoylen]

Please get a work up because at this point, I’ve read the whole thing and it’s impossible to tell how much is concerning and how much is BS. A couple points though.
-Some of the best vets in this country are “field” vets. As I said earlier, high level sport horse barns aren’t really into the hospital vets unless they need the equipment or a surgeon. So the fact that this is a field vet is not making her as unqualified as you have come to believe. But again, I don’t know her and some vets are better than others.
-Trainers at a certain type of barn behave exactly as this one has been behaving as a professional norm. They are in charge of the vet work, because clients have a tendency to go down rabbit holes, ask everyone and their brother for opinions, and come up with treatments based on inexperience and anecdotal advice. But, I don’t know your trainer and she may be an inexperienced egomaniac at a boarding barn trying to act like she’s running a high level show barn, or not.
-Horses buck sometimes. The internet and Facebook would have you believe there’s something wrong with all of them. But 90% of fresh athletic sport horses will tell you otherwise. But, horses also buck when something is wrong.
-I got curious and figured out where you got this horse. They know what they are doing. The ad was honest about the houndwork. They are honest and good horse people and would know a problem if they saw one. Whatever is happening with this horse is likely to have occurred after purchase, and possibly due to the complete lifestyle change that occurred.

[wanderlust]

@middleton.the.grey

it seems like an illogical jump to have a field vet make a neuro diagnosis

Field vets are 100% completely capable of making a neuro diagnosis and grading it based on a neuro exam. You do not need an internal medicine specialist or surgeon to do that. However, if the explanation for it isn’t straightforward (positive EPM test), that is when they should get referred out for further exam and diagnostics.

[BootsAndCoffee]

I would contact New Bolton and Tufts today to see who can get him in fastest, and ask around for shipping help.

I would not let the prior vet treat my horse further. Not only have you been left out of the equation when planning your horse’s treatment, the vet has been game to inject joints despite the fact that the steroid component is contraindicated for multiple conditions that have not been ruled out.

Your trainer is not a veterinary professional, regardless of her expertise in other areas. Her veterinary professional has made poor choices for your horse’s care so far. I would not let either make decisions for your horse.

Pushing back is hard and uncomfortable. Unfortunately, the horse world is peppered with people like your trainer, so building up the “my horse, my call” muscle for medical (and training) issues is important. It gets easier every time you do it.

[middleton.the.grey]

Absolutely and 100% agree with what you said. She did an inhand neuro exam as you would in a PPE and made the diagnosis. Saddle fit is most certainly an issue.We will definitely be bringing this back to stage one and looking at everything, not just neuro but his spine and neck as well as anything concrete and physical that is creating his response. I had Middleton get a massage as I thought it would be nice for him primarily and the massager has been in the business and doing this for rehab horses, performance horses and everything in between and I could pick her brain a bit about what she thought of Middleton’s muscling. She made it clear she was not a vet and her opinion was therefore based on one session with him and just her first impressions as it were but I thought her insight to be very interesting. I am not discounting Tufts, I just found it interesting.

[wanderlust]

@middleton.the.grey

I know a boarder at the barn, who runs an equine sport horse massage business and had her give Middleton a massage as I thought it would be nice for him primarily and she has been in the business and doing this for rehab horses, performance horses and everything in between and I could pick her brain a bit about what she thought of Middleton’s muscling and her findings. She said she thought his back end to be very weak, his topline overall, especially from his lumbar back through his hindquarters. Without the strength to support those bones and structures, as well as pain from an ill fitting saddle she believed that if his back was sore the day the neuro was done, she would have doubted he would pass it especially if he had been ridden in an ill fitting saddle the day before as he had been by my trainer.

Please do not take veterinary advice like this from an equine massage therapist. There are very specific behaviors vets are looking for in a neuro exam. Having a sore back or being weak from lack of work is not going to cause them.

[2bayboys]

OP have you contacted Tufts and made an appointment? If you have not, this is what frustrates people on this thread who are trying to help you. Make the appointment. Stop riding the horse. MAKE THE APPOINTMENT.

[middleton.the.grey]

I do agree that there are good field vets, I know one. He is general practice and my trainer wanted this lameness specialist to come in. He has bucked since he was born and having seen video and in person of this bucking issue, its not him being hot and fresh. The people I bought him from are amazing, absolutely the best horse professionals. They were honest and willing to do anything to make sure it was a good fit. I am good friends with them and they are still very invested in Middleton’s future. They loved him a lot and I couldn’t have had better people to deal with.

[middleton.the.grey]

I should have stated it better, I know that field vets do and are qualified to do neuro, that’s how horses then get referred to internal medicine specialists. I should have said that it seemed to me that she was trying to fix something that she did not have the ability or resources to do so.

[middleton.the.grey]

I did tell the trainer that the riding and lunging of Middelton by anyone except for me (I will not be riding to clarify, but I will be the only one “working” with him) is stopping. I will be contacting Tufts/NB to get the info I need on logistics before making a concrete appointment.

[vxf111]

It’s really hard to follow but my understanding was that the clarification was that he’s not falling down under saddle but that yes, he has days where he is more staggery and has trouble walking and days when he does not. Honestly, the way the info is presented does not always make the situation clear but regardless. IT’S TIME TO GO TO A CLINIC AND GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS WITH PROPER DIAGNOSTIC TOOLS regardless of whether the gut reading is a neurological condition, a back problems, or something else. No matter what you think the issue is, it’s time to stop throwing darts and making wild random guesses and the OP has come to recognize that. So please, for those of you who have not tried to absorb all the info on both threads-- please don’t discourage the OP from doing that. It’s been kind of an uphill battle trying to sort out what the facts are and to convince her to please get the horse properly worked up. I hope it turns out to be something mild but please please please DO NOT DISCOURAGE HER FROM GETTING A PROPER WORKUP because the poor horse deserves it.

[greywithchrome]

Have you booked with a new vet? Interested to hear what the second opinion ends up being.

[middleton.the.grey]

I will update the thread as to appointment results and eventually what we discover. Fingers crossed moving forward…

[IPEsq]

I had a horse “fail” the tail pull neuro test because he had ulcers and his belly hurt. Once those were healed, we repeated the tail pull, and he was totally normal, but he went on to have a full neuro workup at the hospital (because he had other behaviors and we found an issue in his neck), and he passed. This was everything from testing sensation in his face to walking over hills and curbs and blindfolding him, by an expert.

There really are a lot of possibilities, and you may have several things going on. Including ulcers and saddle problems and an issue with how he is being worked/conditioned. But he does have muscle wasting and a significant xray finding, and those should not be discounted. In the long run, a full workup will save you money and time over the piecemeal approach. Lots of us have been there.

When is your saddle supposed to arrive? I agree that this program doesn’t sound the best, but we are seeing only one side of it. I wonder if you were to give your trainer a rehab plan from the clinic if she’d be willing to follow it. It’s hard to judge how much this is a trainer problem versus a communication problem. But you might need to find a barn without as many amenities for the time being while you wait for a spot in another barn. Keep in mind though that barn owners might be wary of bringing in someone who doesn’t seem to be happy anywhere. Regardless of the reasons.

[beowulf]

I wanted to chime in with something after looking at the photos of this horse. His musculature around his neck and shoulders, back through his topline and haunches, are consistent with what I have personally seen with horses with pain-associated symptoms from neck issues like a bone spur or even CA.

I don’t think you can ever look at a horse and definitively diagnose them with neck issues without x-rays, but I do think that over time, physiological changes happen on a surface level to the muscles in their body and it can help “clue” you in. If you have a horse with neck problems, compare his topline to theirs and see if you notice similarities. In specific, I see many of them lean a bit forward versus stand square, and pay special attention to the neck attachment and the musculature(or lack thereof) in and around the withers and shoulder.

I am surprised, frankly, to read that the OP and vets would be chasing any other diagnostics after finding a chip in his neck and remodeled processes in his back. Those things hurt a lot - most horses need some help (therapeutic, injections, etc) to make those spaces comfortable.

It really, absolutely is time to go to a clinic. OP, you have presented several serious spinal pathologies that most traveling vets don’t see or don’t have experience with managing. These issues require therapies that are usually best done at practicing vet hospitals, where the vets see these cases on the daily and know the best treatments to help. Hope you can get an appointment with Tufts or NB ASAP.

[Libby2563]

@middleton.the.grey

I will update the thread as to appointment results and eventually what we discover. We may have the general vet out that I like. He is very competent and has a great reputation and has been in the area for decades and I knew him via friends before he came out originally back in January. He may come out to give us the baseline and a proper referral and re x-ray his neck and back so we can send the x-rays to tufts while we wait for the appointment date, otherwise we will x-ray when we get down there. Fingers crossed moving forward…

Not to discourage you from getting another opinion, but I would not waste my money on neck and back x-rays in the field if getting to Tufts or NB is a reasonable possibility, which I hope it is. Also, you should not need a “proper referral”–just call the hospital and ask for an appointment. Take a list of what other vets have done/found and digital copies of every x-ray you have.

[vxf111]

It’s like screaming into the void at this point, and I’m officially done.

Good luck OP!

[hoopoe]

I agree that there is no use doing films again when your goal is going to Tufts, they will likely want to update the films themselves. They have higher quality equipment that can take better quality films than a field vet. Because the equipment is free standing, the horse can be put in flexions and positions usually not available to field vets

Neuro exams are largely done in hand and not observing a ridden neuro horse is not a failing. neuro response, or lack of it, can be elicited with very specific pressure and manipulations when done by a knowledgeable vet

[2bayboys]

This makes no sense. Why are you bringing in yet another vet if the ultimate goal is to go to the equine hospital? You’re just throwing money away at that point. Call today, make the appointment, and go.

[middleton.the.grey]

My saddle is due to arrive mid-April, they should have no problem with following a vet prescribed rehab plan. I will be taking him to Tufts or NB for assessment there and we will see what’s up.