Neurological Issue? Need Help. Gelding with strange behavior that no one has seen

[Warmblood1]

@endlessclimb

Understanding the fellow is in pain, I’d be interested in someone actually sending him forward (at the walk, no faster) with some kind of conviction, and see what he give you whether it be kicking out or more sideways evasion. He’s meandering around without any march - it’s hard to see lameness or anything else without a decent amount of forward.

It’s tough with this guy, you don’t want to hurt him more but you need to SEE what’s going on and three steps forward-ish then 2 minutes of evasion makes it difficult to troubleshoot

I understand wanting to evaluate and really try to hone in on lameness, but I don’t think I sending him forward is the solution. I think sending a painful and uncomfortable horse forward and adding pressure will only ten fold the chance of further progressing behavioral issues. I don’t think a general lameness exam will result in answers here, unfortunately.

I also don’t think this is a training or conformational issue.

On another note, the horse’s history presents as chronic pain. Being difficult and quirky in the sale barn, then being off for 9 months, returning to work with still the obvious discomfort and evasions/behavioral issues. The anxiety and distraction reads to me as pain.

I think this horse is a saint. I think a lesser minded horse would have tried to kill someone by now. I think without some type of more effective pain management or finding the source of the problem, working the horse is just unfair, as much as I hate to say that for the owner.

[Warmblood1]

Has the vet been able to rule out lesions on the spine?

[TXKing99]

I am so sorry to hear that you have been through so much with your horse. I sincerely hope that the bone scan will provide actionable information.

I wish that Jasper came to me as a chill horse, but he didn’t, so even though I did do an ulcer treatment and he felt noticeably better, it didn’t change how tense he always is.

I could keep spending money and not find the root cause. Or, I may find the root cause and it will likely be something that cannot be fixed (based on the progression I have seen & guesses of lesions, tumors, spinal disease, or neurologic disease), or would have to be managed with meds, which may or may not help. Either way, it does not appear that he will ever be the riding horse I had hoped for.

[TXKing99]

I agree with your comment about sending him forward. It might provide more info but I don’t think it will provide a solution. It will cause him to be more uncomfortable. The last thing I want is to put this horse through more discomfort. Please know that he has only been ridden 2x since May for a total of about 12 minutes. I am not riding him regularly. I really hesitated on letting someone else get on him, but I had to know if it was me. Maybe it was a bad decision, I don’t know.

I agree as well that he was a saint. Although he is indifferent with me, I do know he has been kind, even when uncomfortable or in pain. It tells me prior to whatever this is with him, he was a good horse and had decent training.

Sadly, I am beginning to to realize that the easy answer I keep hoping for isn’t there. It’s not going to be a simple fix and I may have a very difficult situation ahead of me.

[TXKing99]

No. His spine has not been x-rayed.

Is there anything you can do for lesions on the spine?

[IPEsq]

There are various things that might be done with a spine or pelvis issue, but it depends on what it is. Severe lumbo-sacral disc disease can have a poor prognosis where you’ve got acute pain and neuro symptoms. Some issues involving OA or touching or overriding bone might be helped with injections or surgery or other pain-relief modalities like shockwave and mesotherapy. But if the spinal cord is compromised, probably nothing to be done. It appears that whatever you’ve got is chronic and progressive. So I think I’d do some more imaging of his back and pelvis and see if you find anything. Remember, not finding anything doesn’t mean nothing’s there (I have a necropsy report to prove that on one horse). But if you do find something, based on what it is, you can decide if he can reasonably even be retirement sound at this point, or potentially a riding horse, or maybe it’s getting to be close to time to say goodbye. In my experience, horses with spine issues that start going into the realm of neuro deficits and acute pain episodes can become explosive and dangerous (either because they panic or because they have acute ataxic episodes) if it’s not managed/controlled, even if that is not their usual nature. You might be able to confirm location/issue with epidural analgesia, but that is pretty risky in a horse, as you don’t want to accidentally disable the hind legs. It’s quite possible that something like Bute won’t touch his discomfort. Maybe a trial of steroid or gabapentin would be informative or treating potential spinal cord issue with the compounded EPM drugs.

It’s relatively easy to do the ultrasounds, and so that’s why I’d go there next (and have done on my own horses).

[endlessclimb]

@Warmblood1

I understand wanting to evaluate and really try to hone in on lameness, but I don’t think I sending him forward is the solution. I think sending a painful and uncomfortable horse forward and adding pressure will only ten fold the chance of further progressing behavioral issues. I don’t think a general lameness exam will result in answers here, unfortunately.

Oh I didn’t mean to say there would be any long term helping of his issues from being sent forward. In my opinion, it won’t do more damage either though. He might REALLY act out, you’re right. But it’s hard to see anything at all from the videos because the person is just sitting passively instead of showing “this is what I’m asking for, this is what I’m getting”.

[Warmblood1]

@TXKing99

Please know that he has only been ridden 2x since May for a total of about 12 minutes. I am not riding him regularly. I really hesitated on letting someone else get on him, but I had to know if it was me. Maybe it was a bad decision, I don’t know.

I don’t think it was a bad decision. It gives you more video footage, verifies the issues, and gives you a chance to have eyes on. I think you have a good feel for what would be unfair to ask of him. And I have to say, I commend you and have a great deal of respect for you for going to great lengths to figure out what’s wrong with your boy. You are doing right by him. I really appreciate that.

IPEsq gave some great information on spine and hip issues. It entirely depends on what’s going on. At this point, you could potentially treat for EPM for a couple hundred dollars, and then keep providing low costs treatment conducive of treating back issues, which would be NSAIDs, massage work, warm/cold compression therapy, and time off. You could provide massage therapy and hot/cold compression therapy yourself if you’re looking to curb costs. This is providing you can afford him and his time off.

If it were me personally, I think I would also consider radiographs of the spine. I know you are sitting on a fence at this point with treatment and prognosis. You could allow the EPM treatment to run its course and if issues are persistent, opt for rads. If rads didn’t result in a diagnosis, you may be looking at something difficult to diagnose even with diagnostics. Maybe not, but I think pursuing a few more options may give you peace in mind in the long run. There is also the discussion of quality of life and euthanasia. I just want to say that I think euthanasia can be a very kind, humane thing to give a horse. If you found yourself unable to care for him, and couldn’t find a safe home for him to retire to, then sometimes the best thing we can do is give them a happy, peaceful ending. I support you in your decision either way and hope the best for you both.

[Warmblood1]

@endlessclimb

Oh I didn’t mean to say there would be any long term helping of his issues from being sent forward. In my opinion, it won’t do more damage either though. He might REALLY act out, you’re right. But it’s hard to see anything at all from the videos because the person is just sitting passively instead of showing “this is what I’m asking for, this is what I’m getting”

I understand and appreciate your thinking. There is a fine line between too much and just enough and sometimes you have to push that fine line a bit to know. But in my mind, there is the potential that severe behavioral issues develop as one keeps pushing a patient horse too far. Secondary issues can result from stress - ulcers, colic, destructive behaviors etc. To me, he is showing enough under saddle to warrant more diagnostics versus riding with the symptoms he presents.

[NaturallyHappy]

Parasympathetic and sympathetic neurological problems can be a thing in horses. Because of the penile problems, I would wonder about the penile and pelvic nerves being impinged somehow. I tried to add a photo from one of my anatomy books but am too much of a tech flop. Perhaps you can look in some anatomy books. I’m not sure who you find to help you with this, but it’s an idea. I know when I do body work on my horse in his lumbar area, he must get tingly feelings down his hind legs as he drops and tries to scratch his hind pasterns.

[endlessclimb]

I agree. I was imagining a 60 second stint, not an extended or repeated event.

[Pepsy]

Not saying our horses have the same problem, BUT, our horse was just diagnosed by pelvic ultrasound as having an old fracture to the third trochanter. Horse has been NQR since we purchased him 4 years ago. 2 years ago we had a bone scan done that did not point us to this area. The thing that is similiar is the walking like he is drunk when first in motion, head up in air, swinging the neck, and the chiropractic diagnosis, in our case, right hip was forward. Again, the 2 horses are not the same, we were lucky to be able to work through a lot over the past 4 years. Had the initial injury been treated properly, we likely would have a more useful horse. Our horse lived out on the range before we bought him so who knows what happened. Injury builds on injury is my contribution. Suggesting looking at structures of hind end with pelvic ultrasound. Our bill was just under $600 for that. Good Luck. Very frustrating

[CindyCRNA]

Zebra diagnosis: hind leg shivers, a degenerative neurological disease that causes hind end weakness.

[vxf111]

I’ve seen many cases of shivers. None really looked anything like this.

[3PonyFarm]

Case Report – Equine Urolithiasis - Southwest Equine Veterinary Group

Perhaps you have already seen this article, I came across it looking up another issue and saw this and thought of your horse.

The stone bouncing around was causing gait abnormality and discomfort in another gelding with urolithiasis.
With all the bladder work you had done to your horse I would think it would be ruled out but I am posting the article just in case.

I hope you get answers soon.

[3PonyFarm]

Equine Urolithiasis - Woodside Equine Clinic

Another article you might be interested in.

[3PonyFarm]

Fox Run Equine Center

And another article. The horse I was researching for is a racehorse. He has switched from alfalfa to grass hay and is on uva ursi leaves as a supplement. He has kidney/bladder issues which his owner hopes to manage with diet.

Again, good luck!

[RhythmNCruise]

Poor guy. Watching those videos he reminds me of a more severe version of my own gelding. My guy went through some back issues and possibly ulcers (never scoped) that stemmed from a few issues (wrong feed, poor angles in hind feet, poor saddle fit). He wound up with recurring spasms in his back that would absolutely send him bat-crackers whenever he’d get the least bit tense or anxious about something. It was horrible. He’d always been my laid-back dude.

Someone mentioned sending the horse forward. In the end this is what finally pushed my horse into his more explosive behavior. He used to be a kick-a-long ride that, even if he did spook, it was in place and he got over it and life went on. I decided it was time for him to be “more forward” because he really was a plug, and eventually he was a nervous wreck under saddle AND on the ground. He would get anxious about a sound (something he hears all the time like the mowers mowing in the distance) and would literally tremble with eyes bugged out, neck held high (this is a western pleasure bred horse). I felt so bad for him.

He was adjusted twice by a DVM chiro, and he HATED it both times. She’s the one who diagnosed his back spasms. She recommended supplementing magnesium. That was no problem because I had ordered some Smart Calm Ultra which has 10g of magnesium. He started getting that the same day. A week later, he was noticeably calmer overall. More comfortable in his own skin, less distracted and reactive. The longer he was on it the better he got.

Next steps: find a saddle he liked. Even though the saddle at the time had been fitted by a professional, my horse still wasn’t pleased. He’s a good soul, so he tolerated it, but it was obviously still causing some issues. On a hunch, I impulse-bought a Wintec Isabell (I ride dressage) because of its much lighter weight and the way the panels are flatter to distribute my weight more evenly. He LOVES the saddle. So do I, thankfully. Whew.

Another major step: new farrier who specializes in barefoot and corrective trimming. She’s amazing and has made such a difference in his feet and overall well-being.

Final step, with everything going well from the steps above, I worked him pretty regularly and began really expecting more. All was good until one day it felt like both of his hinds had gone “flat”. It was awful. I’d never felt anything like it. Got the vet involved and discovered arthritis in his hocks. He was bad enough that he couldn’t even lay down (he’d try, it wasn’t happening). The decision was made to start him on daily Equioxx immediately and his first series of Adequan shots was ordered. It only took a few days on Equioxx to notice a big difference and to see him finally lay down. About 4 shots into the Adequan series, and just the difference in him being led in from the pasture or turned around in the cross-ties was amazing. He had always been one that you had to drag while leading and who was sooo stiff to turn around in a tight area. That was all fixed with Equioxx and Adequan.

I say all of this because there is something about your horse that, while he’s much more severe, does remind me of my guy. The scooping, thrusting thing with his penis is weird for sure. My guy drops a lot, and especially when I’m tightening up his girth at the mounting block. But he puts it away once I’m on and we’re working. So, that part is definitely different. But if whatever is going on with him to cause that is also causing muscle spasms and pain elsewhere, I would definitely suggest a bute trial to see if reducing his pain helps.

I’d also strongly suggest, just because he does look so tight/tense over his topline, to add some magnesium. It won’t hurt anything and just might help. My guy is on the Magnesium 5000 by MVP now. I have been double dosing him to get that 10g (he has mag in his ration and forage balancers too…so he’s getting more like 14+g of mag). I cut him back to one scoop this week just to see how he did, and I swear that even though I haven’t ridden him, I can tell just leading him that he’s a little more sluggish and reluctant and tight again. So, back up to the double-dose he goes.

Anyway, sorry for the novel. I’ve been following this thread, and I hope you can figure out what’s going on with him. It can be so frustrating, I know. Best of luck to you!

[2tempe]

These are interesting, and could fit with OP’s horse.

[TXKing99]

Thank you so much for sharing the article. Very interesting. Stones were ruled out previously with the bladder scope and multiple ultrasounds. It was something my vet explained to me when he did the initial bladder ultrasound. Another vet also shared that heavy amounts of sediment in the bladder can be very uncomfortable for a horse, so I thought that might be the issue. But when he was scoped they found very little sediment in his bladder. Maybe it just hasn’t built up again?
Still a very interesting article. Thank you for sharing.