New Article on Cesar Parra Controversy

[Mardi1]

@stillgoing

“We will not be able to publish more until a criminal complaint has been filed against Cesar Parra. This is currently being worked on and we hope that the American federation will do something about it by next week."

I’m not understanding what he means by this. USEF oversees competitions as the national governing body of equestrian sports. As far as I know, their oversight doesn’t include what goes on at a home barn. If an outside law enforcement agency investigates Parra, files charges for horse related (not immigration/visa) crimes, brings him to trial, and he’s convicted, then USEF can step in and apply their rules with sanctions.

If he’s violated rules at horse shows, that’s USEF and FEI’s jurisdiction through their stewards, and if found guilty, they have their punishments.

Is Adam Steffen-Smienk saying that they are waiting for USEF to file a criminal complaint against Parra? Or they’re waiting for law enforcement to file first, so USEF can go ahead and take action.

[bingbingbing]

It states under the photo: Cesar Parra at a restaurant in Palm Beach Saturday night.

[DownYonder]

I am thinking they have been advised to not publicly disclose anything further to avoid the possibility of tainting or interfering with a criminal investigation. Criminal charges against Parra may also make him think twice about taking any sort of retaliatory action against the whistleblowers. IOW, if he tries to sue someone for defamation because they stated publicly that he did XYZ, but he has been criminally charged for doing XYZ, I would think that would make his defamation case harder to win.

[Bogey2]

I think he does not understand how these things work in the USA…hell I don’t even know how this works and am an American.

[SillyHorse]

@bingbingbing

It states under the photo: Cesar Parra at a restaurant in Palm Beach Saturday night.

Gotcha, thank you. I guess I didn’t want to linger long enough on the photo to read the caption because I didn’t want to look at Parra for any longer than necessary.

[pluvinel]

@mombc24

What you have is not what they give at the L Program anymore. Now Basics IS the #1 thing in the judging methodology.

Ok…I admit I am out of date, but then I ask why are gaits still such a big part of the consideration for score in each…and…every…movement?

I attend clinics with BNTs including former Olympians and when they discussed a horse, “oh, but the gaits!” are the words out of the mouth of one such person when discussing a horse.

Perhaps you can post what are the current L-Progam teachings.

Maybe this teaching hasn’t percolated down to actual judges and is still only in the learner judge curriculum.

[mombc24]

then I ask why are gaits still such a big part of the consideration for score in each…and…every…movement?

I don’t know being that I’m only learning from what I am given. I just wanted to let you know that it seems things are at least changing from what you were given in the L Program before.

We aren’t allowed to share L Program materials. This series of articles is from 2014 but it seems like what I learned more recently as well.

Lessons_from_the_L_Program.pdf

Lesson_from_L.pdf

161635Lessons_from_the_L_Program.pdf

124712Lessons_from_the_L_Program.pdf

[KurPlexed]

@pluvinel

Perhaps you can post what are the current L-Progam teachings

Basics + criteria +/- modifiers

[pluvinel]

@KurPlexed

Basics + criteria +/- modifiers

Thank you.

Ok…I read the first USDF article and it seems they just changed the definitions

For now, however, know that basics are about the purity and quality of the gaits, and about the quality of the impulsion and the submission

So are the Basics still about the gaits?

[mombc24]

My takeaway is that Basics essentially = Training Scale.

From the glossary:

BASICS
The basics include pure rhythm with suitable tempo; relaxation/suppleness/elasticity/looseness; correct contact/connection; impulsion, straightness, and longitudinal balance suitable to the level and exercise - in other words, all the criteria of the Pyramid of Training/Training Scale. The basics form a correct foundation from progressive training independent of the execution of test movements.
Correctness of the basics is indicated by the preservation and/or improvement in:

• the purity, quality, and variation of gaits
• the gymnastic ability and physique of the horse
• the horse’s confidence and rideability

[pluvinel]

@mombc24

My takeaway is that Basics essentially = Training Scale.

From the glossary:

BASICS
The basics include pure rhythm with suitable tempo; relaxation/suppleness/elasticity/looseness; correct contact/connection; impulsion, straightness, and longitudinal balance suitable to the level and exercise - in other words, all the criteria of the Pyramid of Training/Training Scale. The basics form a correct foundation from progressive training independent of the execution of test movements.
Correctness of the basics is indicated by the preservation and/or improvement in:

• the purity, quality, and variation of gaits
• the gymnastic ability and physique of the horse
• the horse’s confidence and rideability

Thank you. So we are back to the gaits as being the first to be looked at.

Why not the training…like the accurracy of the figures, the calmness and ease with which the horse does his work.

Remember FEI Article 401/USEF Article 101
Object and General Principles of Dressage

1. The object of dressage is the development of the horse into a happy athlete through harmonious education.
   As a result, it makes the horse calm, supple, loose and flexible, but also confident, attentive and keen, thus
   achieving perfect understanding with the rider.
2. These qualities are demonstrated by:
   a. The freedom and regularity of the gaits;
   b. The harmony, lightness, and ease of the movements;
   c. The lightness of the forehand and the engagement of the hindquarters, originating from a lively impulsion;
   d. The acceptance of the bit, with submissiveness/throughness (Durchlässigkeit) without any tension or
   resistance.
3. The horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the rider, remaining absolutely straight in any movement on a straight
   line and bending accordingly when moving on curved lines.
4. The walk is regular, free, and unconstrained. The trot is free, supple, regular, and active. The canter is united,
   light, and balanced. The hindquarters are never inactive or sluggish. The horse responds to the slightest
   indication of the rider and thereby gives life and spirit to all the rest of its body.

[mombc24]

Thank you. So we are back to the gaits as being the first to be looked at.

Why not the training…like the accurracy of the figures, the calmness and ease with which the horse does his work.

Well, to be fair, the first item in the Object and General Principles of Dressage you quoted is

a. The freedom and regularity of the gaits;

I’m not arguing for or against gaits by the way, just giving you the more up-to-date L guidelines and definitions.

Also the “Criteria” aspect addresses the accuracy of figures. Calmness & ease is part of training scale (suppleness/relaxation) which is Basics. Criteria & Basics are weighted equally I believe.

[pluvinel]

@mombc24

I’m not arguing for or against gaits by the way, just giving you the more up-to-date L guidelines and definitions

We’re cool. But again, it begs the question as to whether the judges are judging to the rules when disjointed trots with flinging front ends and disconnected canters are highly scored.

The trot thingy started with DAP…or whatever term Hillary Clayton came up with for the footfalls of the trot that started to place emphasis on the front end in the trot.

And what has an "uphill canter’ got to do with anything if the footfalls of the canter are correct and regular?

For grounding…this is where emphasis on the front end came into focus…
Diagonal Advanced Placement, or DAP, is also referred to as diagonal dissociation. DAP describes one foot of a diagonal pair landing fractionally before the horse’s other foot. Positive DAP (+DAP) is when the horse’s hind foot in a diagonal pair lands fractionally before the front foot.

[mombc24]

They did mention DAP as being a positive if the hind foot lands before the front in the trot but that you probably can’t really see it with the naked eye judging a test in real time. I took that to be more about the hind end than the front actually. They also gave an example of flashy front end with haunches out behind = bad.

I wonder if instead of “uphill” which leads our human brains to think of a flashy front end we should be focusing more on “sitting behind” to get more of the right idea?

[pluvinel]

@mombc24

I wonder if instead of “uphill” which leads our human brains to think of a flashy front end we should be focusing more on “sitting behind” to get more of the right idea?

This is where “test validation” comes into play and where a statistical concept known as Attribute Agreement Analysis is used.

Attribute Agreement Analysis (AAA) is a statistical method used to assess the reliability and agreement among different appraisers/judges. This is particularly useful where multiple individuals may be involved in assessing a product or service.

Attribute Agreement Analysis to assess whether appraisers/judges are consistent with themselves, with one another, and with known standards.

The USDF was approached to evaluate the judge’s training program using AAA.
Attribute agreement analysis is used to answer the questions:

• Does the appraiser/judge agree with himself on all trials?
• Does the appraiser/judge agree with the known standard on all trials?
• Do all appraisers/judges agree with themselves (within appraiser) and others (between appraisers) on all trials?
• Do all appraisers agree with themselves, with others, and with the standard?

But nooooo…not interested.

For you stats nerds out there, here is a Minitab (statistical software company) writeup on AAA

Assistant_Attribute_Agreement_Analysis.pdf (minitab.com)

[mombc24]

@pluvinel

The USDF was approached to evaluate the judge’s training program using AAA.

@pluvinel

But nooooo…not interested.

Do we know why they said no? USDF follows FEI judging guidelines right? So perhaps the FEI should be the ones to go to to try and implement that method otherwise we’d have completely different systems for Intro-4th and PSG & up. And good luck changing the FEI…

[pluvinel]

@mombc24

Do we know why they said no?

Politics. Some people got their backs up when this was proposed.

@mombc24

USDF follows FEI judging guidelines right? So perhaps the FEI should be the ones to go to to try and implement that method otherwise we’d have completely different systems for Intro-4th and PSG & up.

This is where David Stickland came on the scene.
Global Dressage Analytics | Team

He is in Switzerland and connected with FEI. That’s where they came up with the “judge supervisory panel”…yeah…sure.
Here ya go
Judges Supervisory Panel technical requirements.pdf (fei.org)

@mombc24

And good luck changing the FEI…

Agreed. I’m here just blowing off steam. Let the next generation carry the torch.

[SpicyPRE]

Because dressage is hard and time consuming. Trainers dont have the knowledge to train correctly and students dont want to put the time in. Win at all costs as quickly as possible.

[pluvinel]

@SpicyPRE

Because dressage is hard and time consuming. Trainers dont have the knowledge to train correctly and students dont want to put the time in. Win at all costs as quickly as possible.

We are talking about judges…in an Olympic sport. You would think the governing organizations would want statistical rigor behind the dressage scoring methodology.

[mombc24]

How do the other olympic sports do this - gymnastics, figure skating, etc? If they don’t do this yet either then it’s clearly a bigger issue than just dressage. If they do, well then that’s an argument for why dressage needs to get on board too.

I will say coming from hunterland that at least dressage judging is better than that! As a low level rider I’m more interested in how my own scores compare to each other vs someone else and I appreciate the transparency and attempt at a standardized system.