New Article on Cesar Parra Controversy

[Manni01]

Well it makes a big difference to think about a situation or to be right in the middle……

Another example from my long life. hurricane Irma was approaching the Sarasota Tampa area…. It was the first major Hurricane I was experiencing and I decided early to stay because I had a big solid block barn and a very solid built house. around me it was interesting to watch the reactions of people…. a friend of mine a very tough solid midwestern Cowboy went to become a nervous wreck, my children left for Texas. I had a German friend who was appearing very brave and told everybody she would stay and hunker down…. .

Well irma came closer and closer . A lot of horse people went crazy about it and evacuated last minute to Ocala.
My German friend told everybody she would stay…
Then Irma came and really wasn’t that bad in our area…. I believe I only lost two trees. That was it…. But my friend obviously lost her nerve and left, her house 2 hours before Irma was supposed to hit her area…. I was amazed because I always thought she had very strong believes and was tough… Another friend of mine hunkered down in his bathtub and really because it slowed down before it reached our area it wasn’t really that bad…. I believe my German friend was more in danger than my other friends. I don’t want to be on a road when a hurricane comes close…

But she is a good example for somebody with strong believes who suddenly gets into a situation she had never experienced before…. You might react different than you would think….

[2tempe]

You are correct that there is not enough invested in horse welfare. But- as I was thinking about the panel, which is an interesting idea, I was reminded about the vets who were complicit in and convicted of the drugging of race horses over the last few years - a different form of abuse that was widespread. So selection needs to be done carefully.
https://www.avma.org/javma-news/2020-04-15/veterinarians-among-those-charged-widespread-horse-doping-scheme

[sascha]

@Knights_Mom

I’d be a whistle blower in the face of CP level abuse.

Who would believe you? Sadly, that’s one of the biggest problems with this type of abuse.

[Ghazzu]

@Manni01

But she is a good example for somebody with strong believes who suddenly gets into a situation she had never experienced before…. You might react different than you would think….

Good point.

[Knights_Mom]

@Manni01

Well it makes a big difference to think about a situation or to be right in the middle……

Another example from my long life. hurricane Irma was approaching the Sarasota Tampa area…. It was the first major Hurricane I was experiencing and I decided early to stay because I had a big solid block barn and a very solid built house. around me it was interesting to watch the reactions of people…. a friend of mine a very tough solid midwestern Cowboy went to become a nervous wreck, my children left for Texas. I had a German friend who was appearing very brave and told everybody she would stay and hunker down…. .

Well irma came closer and closer . A lot of horse people went crazy about it and evacuated last minute to Ocala.
My German friend told everybody she would stay…
Then Irma came and really wasn’t that bad in our area…. I believe I only lost two trees. That was it…. But my friend obviously lost her nerve and left, her house 2 hours before Irma was supposed to hit her area…. I was amazed because I always thought she had very strong believes and was tough… Another friend of mine hunkered down in his bathtub and really because it slowed down before it reached our area it wasn’t really that bad…. I believe my German friend was more in danger than my other friends. I don’t want to be on a road when a hurricane comes close…

But she is a good example for somebody with strong believes who suddenly gets into a situation she had never experienced before…. You might react different than you would think….

I get what you are saying but for me personally, after all I’ve been through, I’m pretty sure of how I’ll act.

[Knights_Mom]

@sascha

@Knights_Mom

I’d be a whistle blower in the face of CP level abuse.

Who would believe you? Sadly, that’s one of the biggest problems with this type of abuse.

One would have to consider this and prepare if that opportunity presented.

[sascha]

Excellent. Please describe how.

[CHT]

Regarding farriers: the farrier probably works in a separate area on the day the horses have off. The horses are likely tranqu’ed. They are likely wearing sheets.

That’s how things work at a local jumper barn - they have a separate farrier barn and the horses wear blankets at all times unless ridden. Tranq is standard. The farrier makes his money and leaves. He has no responsibility to look under the sheets or question why the horses need drugs to be shod.

[Cowgirl]

I agree, but I think that as long as we make selection independently (and I’m thinking that University Vet Schools are a safer place than vets connected to high performance team members), I think it can be done. I was responding to USEF/USDF saying that they couldn’t do anything now. They can. They can educate and wake people up. They can set up a system for horses like SafeSport. They can make reporting anonymous and free. They can make all members take education. And they need to be graphic about it. I am very certain that TDs and show managers and others are not trained that overriding is abuse just because of the vast amount of it (and particularly woodshedding after a bad test) I have seen in my decades of showing. I remember one show in particular where a trainer took her student and the student’s horse into the warm up arena and they took turns riding that horse for three hours. How do I know it was three hours? Because I was going out to dinner with them and I was waiting and waiting and went to check multiple times. They told me that they couldn’t stop until the horse came through the poll…

[Knights_Mom]

@sascha

Excellent. Please describe how.

How what?

[pluvinel]

@Arlomine

I think it would be possible to put more weight on things that are reflective of training rather than the natural ability of the horse. And I think that would be a great idea.

I totally agree with this.

@Arlomine

But you can’t eliminate Gaits entirely in my opinion.

I never suggested that gaits be eliminated. What I suggested was

Why not the training…like the accuracy of the figures, the calmness and ease with which the horse does his work.

[2tempe]

The USHJA has created something called “blue ribbon panel” to focus on horse welfare. They tried something 6 years ago, had challenges but are trying again in response to their members. (its a thread on the HJ section here) Perhaps USDF could create something similar including some of your suggestions. I guess all of us should start sending emails…we certainly need to make some noise. What I find interesting is the idea of subsets under USEF as each group has different abuse issues that impact their part of equine sport. EDITED to add: I just fired of such an email to USDF.

[sascha]

@Knights_Mom

One would have to consider this and prepare if that opportunity presented.

This ^ is what my question refers to. How would you prepare for not being believed by the folks who would listen to you blowing your whistle?

[sparkygrace]

I assume a number of people on this thread just received this email?

Dear USEF Member,

We would like to take a moment to address the recently published videos and accusations of abuse levied against U.S.-based international dressage athlete Cesar Parra. The images and videos are disturbing and show a complete disregard for horse welfare and are in no way aligned with our values and beliefs as the stewards of horse sport in the United States.

Parra has been temporarily suspended by the FEI while they actively investigate the matter. USEF is enforcing the suspension and supporting that investigation. To ensure the integrity of the investigation, we are unable to disclose further details, but we want to be absolutely clear – we are documenting these violations and will pursue disciplinary action to the highest degree in partnership with the FEI.

It is imperative that as a community we continue to hold each other accountable and speak up when we see something that endangers the integrity of our sport, the health and welfare of our horses, and/or the well-being of our athletes and members. If you have witnessed horse-related abuse, please contact USEF by texting what you saw to 2USEF (28733) or by emailing generalcounsel@usef.org. As a reminder, if you witnessed or have knowledge of sexual abuse, it must be reported to law enforcement and the U.S. Center for SafeSport.

Sincerely,

Thomas F. X. O’Mara

President

William J. Moroney

Chief Executive Officer

[stillgoing]

@Cowgirl

Woodshedding a horse after a bad test happens all the time. I have seen trainers take the horse to the paddock area and run it around a small paddock. I have seen people ride a horse for long periods of time AFTER their test. I have never seen any TD do anything about it.

So are these “professionals” really so IGNORANT to not know that (1)punishment is NOT the way to train (2) if one does choose to use punishment, if it’s inflicted more that a second or two after the unwanted behavior it will NOT be connected by the animal to the behavior, it’s just cruelty, pure and simple. How in the f’ing hell is any horse supposed to know he didn’t do the test good enough and therefore, he’s being whipped later when they think no one is watching? SERIOUSLY??? People seem worried that PETA will take them down – well, I’m not a member or supporter of PETA but if that’s what it takes to for the EQ community to wake up, then so be it!

Folks – this is Animal Behavior Training and Science 101 – honestly, the level of ignorance in the equestrian community, at all levels, is astounding. And a big reason why I stopped even going to shows or clinics to watch. It’s why I stopped boarding and taking lessons. The ignorance got in the way of doing anything worth doing. It made me sick. Never seen so many heads up in so many dark places, and the rest seem to be in the sand.

[FitzE]

@rothmpp

Are you saying all those gymnasts that were systemically abused were complicit in the abuse? Are you saying a person who does not just leave a abusive situation is guilty as well? Because that is how it sounds.

C’mon, @rothmpp. I’m not and you and sascha know I’m not. I never understand why people do this kind of rhetorical thing trying to make out that a poster with my history is now suddenly a victim shamer who also holds 10 year old gymnasts responsible for their abuse. That kind of nonsensical, baiting destroys any discussion we may have had. And to compare CP and Nassar is also, with all due respect, not good.

[FitzE]

@DownYonder

Clients and WS have kept quiet for various reasons - either they didn’t witness abusive treatment or they were worried about retaliation if they broke their NDAs, or they were afraid to say anything because he held their visa, passports, etc.

Or they participated willingly. As we’ve pointed out here, many many other trainers use these methods and many people pay for trainers to use these methods on their horses and people stand around and sip Champagne and watch trainers use these methods on their horses.

@DownYonder

So what about the vets, farriers, body workers who treated all those horses? Surely they have tales to tell. Did they also have to sign NDAs?

I really wonder about this, too. I was going to mention it up thread but I was already getting so much pushback for suggesting the people who sat on these horses while they were abused had to be part of the investigation and solution that I thought I’d better not mention all the professional service providers, too. But they all need to be a part of this investigation. Saying otherwise, exempting a whole group of them b/c some might have been in a tough situation just makes no sense to me. Everyone there has a part to play in sorting this out.

[Manni01]

I believe you are looking in the wrong direction…. It’s not the riders and grooms fault…

Rather look for the money . It’s the people who are willing to spend a fortune for a nice horse. And of course the people willing to sell these nice horses…and then it’s the people in high positions of these organizations who provide a marketing framework (shows auctions breeding) for making sure the horses are marketed accordingly….

[Bogey2]

Where are you that you are seeing all this abuse and who have you reported it to? I have never seen anyone abuse a horse after a bad test in my area.

[FitzE]

100% agreed. You make a good point about him selecting workers from specific backgrounds.