New Article on Cesar Parra Controversy

[fivestrideline]

@chancellor2

I wonder if everyone just thinks someone else is going to see and report the abuse.

Bystander effect. A scientifically proven phenomenon where when people are in groups, everyone assumes someone else will take action and so no one does.

I also think people forget that the TDs (and any official really) are one human among many and will not see everything. They may be in the office, or the bathroom, or walking between rings, or standing right there but their attention is being demanded by XYZ and they just didn’t see whatever the bystander saw.

Report it. Complaints of “I saw this Person doing XYZ abusive or illegal thing and no one did anything about it” carry much less impact if the person who saw it didn’t report to the available authorities.

(I’m not saying it didn’t happen, to be clear. I’m saying if everyone reported these things, we’d have more ammo to go after the governing body for failure to take action)

[DownYonder]

The monkey wrench in the “see something, say something” philosophy is that by the time you go find the TD and tell her that you saw John Doe whipping his horse repeatedly in the back ring, by the time the TD gets there, John Doe is no longer in that back ring - is either in the competition arena or main warm-up ring or back at the barn, and/or he sees the TD coming and is on his best behavior. So TD shrugs and says there is nothing she can do, John Doe gets away with his antics and is very likely to repeat it because he knows the TD can’t be everywhere and if she doesn’t see something, she can’t say something.

That said - does anyone know if TDs are compelled to act based on cellphone video? Or do they have to actually witness the questionable behavior in person?

I will also add that it will take a TD with serious chutzpah to challenge someone like CP, given his reputation for threats of lawsuit, etc.

[chancellor2]

Absolutely all true. And the bystander effect as well fivestrideline.
Cell phone video as proof is something much more available now than ever of course.

[Bogey2]

They are now monitoring the arena’s and warm ups when rings are on lunch break with stewards. This has not been done in my area in the past.

[xQHDQ]

Another issue is that you think you are a no one and if the big(ger) names aren’t saying anything than maybe you shouldn’t either. You assume the bigger names know better than little ole amateur nobody. You guess that the abuser has friends in high places and could retaliate.

[catzndogz22]

How hard would it be to set up a camera in the warmup area? If someone reports abuse, the TD can go check the video.

[DownYonder]

@catzndogz22

How hard would it be to set up a camera in the warmup area? If someone reports abuse, the TD can go check the video.

Good idea although sometimes stuff happens in “out-of-the-way” rings that aren’t part of the competition infrastructure (think of big facilities like horse parks where the show rents 4-5 rings but there are other empty rings that aren’t rented by the show). It would also be an issue of cost and resources. One or more extra videographers, and who pays for it - show organizer or USEF?

[catzndogz22]

@DownYonder

One or more extra videographers, and who pays for it - show organizer or USEF

Videographers? I was thinking something more down the line of a few Ring type cameras.

[DownYonder]

@catzndogz22

I was thinking something more down the line of a few Ring type cameras.

That’s certainly a thought but they have a fixed field of vision, so each ring would need several (3-4?). They would require someone with the right technical expertise to set them up and make sure they are communicating with the show office. They also require wifi and I am not sure every show venue has wifi that extends to all the rings. Isn’t the outdoor range something like 300 feet? I guess range extenders could be used although don’t those need to be plugged into an electrical outlet?

It does seem that it is high time to make use of modern technology to help monitor showgrounds. It will of course result in higher costs for showing, because USEF and/or show organizers are going to pass those costs along to the competitors.

[Ghazzu]

@DownYonder

by the time you go find the TD and tell her that you saw John Doe whipping his horse repeatedly in the back ring, by the time the TD gets there, John Doe is no longer in that back ring

It shouldn’t be overly difficult to compile a “watch” list for TDs, stewards, etc. Maybe you won’t catch them immediately, but either they tone it down or evenually get nailed.
Better than doing nothing.

I’ve had students tell me they saw a classmate cheating. I may not have caught them that time, but they are watched more closely on the next exam.
And faculty do talk to one another…

[Mardi1]

@DownYonder

I will also add that it will take a TD with serious chutzpah to challenge someone like CP, given his reputation for threats of lawsuit, etc.

Wouldn’t a lawsuit against a TD actually be a lawsuit against USEF, since the TD was employed by USEF ?

[DownYonder]

@Ghazzu

It shouldn’t be overly difficult to compile a “watch” list for TDs, stewards, etc.

Good idea! Does anyone know if USEF currently has these kind of lists? Is it a formal process for TDs - IOW, are they told during training, etc., to utilize watchlists, how to compile them, how to manage them, etc.?

[DownYonder]

@Mardi1

Wouldn’t a lawsuit against a TD actually be a lawsuit against USEF, since the TD was employed by USEF ?

I assume so, although it would still be a major headache for the TD to have to attend hearings, depositions, blah-blah-blah. Again, I think many TDs are going to think long and hard before they report someone with a reputation for fighting back, esp. if that person has very deep pockets behind them and a bit of a reputation for ruthlessness.

[fivestrideline]

Well, I’d think the USEF handles all that, and a TD is paid. I’d assume a USEF would have to pay/compensate a TD for this HUGE part of their job (or the consequences of doing it, anyway).

[DownYonder]

@fivestrideline

Well, I’d think the USEF handles all that, and a TD is paid. I’d assume a USEF would have to pay/compensate a TD for this HUGE part of their job (or the consequences of doing it, anyway).

Good point! Does anyone know if USEF pays travel expenses for TDs to come to Lexington for hearings? I know they don’t pay travel expenses for witnesses, complainants, or “the accused.” (Pre Covid, folks had to appear in person but I don’t know if that policy has changed to utilize Zoom, etc.).

[Demerara_Stables]

@DownYonder

many TDs are going to think long and hard before they report someone with a reputation for fighting back,

I’m sorry but this is literally their job. If someone doesn’t have the b***s to report a competitor abusing a horse, they shouldn’t be a TD.

[fivestrideline]

Abso-freakin-lutely!

[Cowgirl]

I did not witness it, but both Robert Dover admitted to seeing it and saying something to him privately, as did Christine Traurig. I heard about it years ago, so it must have been public enough that people were talking all over the internet about him.

[DownYonder]

@Demerara_Stables

I’m sorry but this is literally their job. If someone doesn’t have the b***s to report a competitor abusing a horse, they shouldn’t be a TD.

Absolutely agree! Just saying that I can see them hesitating if they don’t have PROOF that it occurred. IOW, if Mary tells TD Laurie she saw John Doe kick his horse in the stomach in the stable area, and there isn’t video of the event and TD Laurie didn’t see it in person, she is not going to be inclined to try to press the issue very much with John Doe because she knows he is a dick and may in fact file a protest against HER for harassment and bullying and false accusations. Yes, there are people like John Doe in the sport - and not just CP.

[yaya]

@DownYonder

@Mardi1

Wouldn’t a lawsuit against a TD actually be a lawsuit against USEF, since the TD was employed by USEF ?

I assume so, although it would still be a major headache for the TD to have to attend hearings, depositions, blah-blah-blah. Again, I think many TDs are going to think long and hard before they report someone with a reputation for fighting back, esp. if that person has very deep pockets behind them and a bit of a reputation for ruthlessness.

A TD who had been sued by a competitor for doing her job told me the USEF does nothing to help them. The TD must do everything on their own dime - travel, hiring a lawyer, everything. I had wanted to be a TD before I heard that, but now I don’t want to risk what I have.

You would think that while operating as an agent of USEF they would have your back, but no.