[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;6726709]
My friend, who breeds TBs for eventing took a tour a few years ago of Hanoverian breeding farms in Germany, and one of the farms on the tour WAS breeding TBs to TBs and branding them Hanoverian. The guide told them it was a special farm to breed eventers. She was quite shocked as she knew of the 50% rule.[/QUOTE]
IS that possibly because the 50% rule only applied OUTSIDE the breeding region of Hannover Germany ;)
[QUOTE=MagicRoseFarm;6729037]
…our readily available
(and more modern) TB genepool of mares?[/QUOTE]
Hmmm, the typical modern TB is bred for precocious speed, which means short distances, which means they are built more like sprinters (I saw some TB stallions in Lexington a few years ago that were built more like Quarter Horses - very high behind - and this was at a well known racing stallion station). That is not a conformation I would want in a sport horse breeding program.
Immediately approved? Not sure which European registry you are referring to, but for the German Verbands, it would have to meet the pedigree requirements of the approving registry, pass inspection, and - if a stallion, meet the approving registry’s performance requirements. So maybe not so “immediate”.
My friend, who breeds TBs for eventing took a tour a few years ago of Hanoverian breeding farms in Germany, and one of the farms on the tour WAS breeding TBs to TBs and branding them Hanoverian. The guide told them it was a special farm to breed eventers. She was quite shocked as she knew of the 50% rule.
The 50% blood rule only applies if breeding a NON-Hanoverian registered mare to a NON-Hanoverian registered stallion. While many people - even in Germany - might refer to the Butts breeding program as “breeding TBs”, it is based on a Hanoverian dam line, and those mares are registered as Hanoverians, even though they were sired by TB stallions. Butts Abraxxas, for instance, is 99.6% TB - you can see on HorseTelex that every stallion in his pedigree was TB (I followed it back about 11 generations - to the late 1800s), but the bottom line for at least the past 9 generations were Hanoverian registered mares. http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/411166?levels=9 So because the bottom line mares were registered as Hanoverian, they could be bred to a Hanoverian approved TB stallion, and the foal registered as Hanoverian.
The 50% blood rule would apply to, say, breeding a Hanoverian approved TB mare to Sandro Hit (at least, I only counted 6 Hanoverians in his 4th generation - so 37.5% Hanoverian blood). According to the blood rule, a foal from this cross could not be registered as Hanoverian because, even though both parents are approved for Hanoverian breeding, neither parent is REGISTERED as a Hanoverian, and neither parent possesses at least 50% Hanoverian blood.
Another example is breeding that same Hanoverian-approved TB mare to Royal Diamond. He is registered as Oldenburg, and approved for Hanoverian breeding, but there are NO Hanoverians in his 4th generation (some in his 5th generation, but they only contributed 18.75% Hanoverian blood to his pedigree). So again, since neither parent is registered as Hanoverian, and neither parent has at least 50% Hanoverian blood, the foal could not be registered as Hanoverian.
The NEW ruling would make it possible to breed that TB mare to either of those stallions and receive Hanoverian papers for the foal. And my guess is the reason behind this change in policy is because the Hanoverian Verband is seeking to expand its reach even further (as mentioned, it already absorbed Hesse a few years ago), and this move would help attract breeders into the Hanoverian fold who may be taking their foals to other registries.
The near-purebred TB’s there are a special section of the Verband and referred to as halfblood racers. This is a very small group of horses and has little to no impact on the Hanoverian breeding as a whole.
I think it is about time to faciliate approval procedures for those stallions that are internationally successfull however I do think the opening is going to make a difference in the long run and it does not appear logic to breed two Holsteiners and then have the foal branded Hanoverian for instance.
IMO the Verband acts a bit stirred up recently. Guidelines are brought up, then taken down a few weeks later. It will be interesting to see how this will impact the population.
I understood that the 50% rule was introduced to the AHS because the 1st generation daughters of TB mares were generally substandard - perhaps because breeders were using racing TBs (who were bred for that and maybe good at it) instead of sport TBs, so that the movement produced was insufficient.
[QUOTE=Sunnydays;6729362]
I understood that the 50% rule was introduced to the AHS because the 1st generation daughters of TB mares were generally substandard - perhaps because breeders were using racing TBs (who were bred for that and maybe good at it) instead of sport TBs, so that the movement produced was insufficient.[/QUOTE]
No, the 50% rule was in place with the AHS and the VhW to address breeding of non-Hanoverian animals.
To address the problem you reference, the AHS set the minimum elasticity scores for TB mares to 7 after seeing several years of F1 offspring that lacked movement. The AHS found out that generally speaking TB mares could score an overall 7 fairly easily but many of the subsequent offspring lacked movement. So the AHS now requires an overall 7 and a minimum score of 7 for impulsion/elasticity (trot) to address this.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6729110]
The 50% blood rule only applies if breeding a NON-Hanoverian registered mare to a NON-Hanoverian registered stallion.[/QUOTE]
To further expand on this very correct statement, the rule DOES NOT require that offspring from every breeding have 50% Hanoverian blood from a strict “genetics” point of view. Once a foal is registered as a Hanoverian, that registered animal is deemed 100% Hanoverian regardless of the actual genetics behind it. The Butts horses started from an original Hanoverian damline and while this damline has been repeatedly taken to TB stallions for generations, each subsequent generation is still considered Hanoverian despite having a very high percentage of actual TB genetics.
[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;6729532]
To further expand on this very correct statement, the rule DOES NOT require that offspring from every breeding have 50% Hanoverian blood from a strict “genetics” point of view. Once a foal is registered as a Hanoverian, that registered animal is deemed 100% Hanoverian regardless of the actual genetics behind it. The Butts horses started from an original Hanoverian damline and while this damline has been repeatedly taken to TB stallions for generations, each generation is still considered Hanoverian despite having a very high percentage of actual TB genetics.[/QUOTE]
It is this way also in Holstein. Once a registered Holsteiner, it is considered full Holsteiner regardless of blood %.
Tim
The ramifications of these new proposed breeding rules could be far-reaching. (I just said “could” be. I firmly believe that they WILL BE, and the unintended consequences will be greatly damaging.) This is a big freaking deal. Being from a different country with a very different culture, I find it amazing that these changes are being promulgated with (seemingly) little discussion and public discourse.
Kareen, as a generational Hanoverian breeder, I am very, very interested in what your thoughts are, and will email you if you don’t mind.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6729101]
Hmmm, the typical modern TB is bred for precocious speed, which means short distances, which means they are built more like sprinters (I saw some TB stallions in Lexington a few years ago that were built more like Quarter Horses - very high behind - and this was at a well known racing stallion station). That is not a conformation I would want in a sport horse breeding program. [/QUOTE]
My reference was to the fact that in the early 80’s , The Euro Associations saw through American programs the “lightening/modernizing affects” that the infusion of TB blood was having when crossed with WB industry… Nothing more,
I am certain my fellow American breeders understand what type of TB mare crosses well and what wont… and those that are not sure can be affirmed through an inspection process
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6729101]
Immediately approved? Not sure which European registry you are referring to, but for the German Verbands, it would have to meet the pedigree requirements of the approving registry, pass inspection, and - if a stallion, meet the approving registry’s performance requirements. So maybe not so “immediate”.[/QUOTE]
I stand corrected, I will happily edit the post to say “inspected”. My apologies for the confusion.
Agreed, unfortunately, we did it to ourselves by being so intent on “copying/following” rather than marching to our own drummer in America.
[QUOTE=ahf;6729741]
The ramifications of these new proposed breeding rules could be far-reaching. (I just said “could” be. I firmly believe that they WILL BE, and the unintended consequences will be greatly damaging.) This is a big freaking deal. Being from a different country with a very different culture, I find it amazing that these changes are being promulgated with (seemingly) little discussion and public discourse.
Kareen, as a generational Hanoverian breeder, I am very, very interested in what your thoughts are, and will email you if you don’t mind.[/QUOTE]
I’m just asking a question here - but how do the Hanoverian Verband changes affect the American Hanoverian Society? Does the AHS just automatically make the same rule changes every time the Verband does? I’m just wondering how much discussion is there amongst the membership first before new changes such as this are adopted.
My question makes me wonder how it will affect American breeding at all? It is much more likely to affect Canadians since we have to follow to Verband, although it is an option to follow AHS instead.
AHF - I totally agree - I have no doubt the ramifications will be significant, maybe more than we can insightfully anticipate here in this discussion - but I do think they will differ for Americans than for Canadians. For Canadian breeders, it opens up more stallion choices. HanV-approved stallions standing in Canada total a mere dozen or so. I’m speaking of Hanoverian registered/branded, Hanoverian approved. There are a number of non-Han stallions that are HanV approved. Policy allows us to use AHS stallions quite freely. Opening up the policy to allow us to use highly ranked KWPN or GOV stallions, etc., will benefit Canadians, but the impact will be profound as Canadian breeders can shop world-wide with this policy change and not just HanV or AHS. So, the big impact I see on American Hanoverian stallions is stiffer competition from the world for your Canadian customers’ dollars. But even still, this truly only impacts the frozen semen market. Not the fresh. There will always be high demand for fresh semen from N.A. stallions. For German-based stallions it will also offer a more cut-throat competition for mare owner dollars, because even German mare owners might start shopping for the stallions that have been exported (lost) to countries like France, Holland, the UK, and the like.
The benefits are it can open up and freshen the gene pool. A very significant number of dressage stallions, for example, contain one or a combination of the big 5 - Donnerhall, Rubinstein, Lauries Crusador, Sandro Hit, Weltmeyer. Granted, this is because these stallions are spectacular in their contributions. But still, it’s getting a little condensed. It’s why we’re always looking for that special Trak (like Caprimond, Hohenstein), or TB or AA for blood infusion. I might be way off base here, but it was just a thought.
I’m also wondering if every year the HanV will publish a list of “foreign” approved stallions that breeders can use, or if we still have to write in for consent before we can use ZXY stallion from Sweden, or Holland, or France, etc.
Apologies in advance if these questions were already brought up by someone, in which case point me to the response.
I am not on the Board. So let me be clear I am not speaking for the AHS. However, any changes to the breeding rules have always been voted upon by the membership (at least in the last 18 years).
Just because you “can” use any stallion from a another registry you want to, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. I am horrified at the thought that no consideration to conformation or health assessment would be necessary. A hot young stallion from another registry can do a whole lot of damage very, very quickly should it come with an “issue” that a considered assessment might catch. This becomes ever MORE important when you never set eyes on the stallion in the first place.
And as far as opening up the registration of hanoverian horses that have no Hanoverian blood, what the point of even keeping the registry? In 15 years or less, you won’t be able to find any kind of reliable, consolidated marelines. All you are doing is verifying parentage and making the registry completely performance-based.
I suspect my concerns are in the minority. Americans LOVE being able to do whatever the hell they want to with no oversight.
[QUOTE=ahf;6730115]
[edit]
Just because you “can” use any stallion from a another registry you want to, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. I am horrified at the thought that no consideration to conformation or health assessment would be necessary. A hot young stallion from another registry can do a whole lot of damage very, very quickly should it come with an “issue” that a considered assessment might catch. This becomes ever MORE important when you never set eyes on the stallion in the first place.
And as far as opening up the registration of hanoverian horses that have no Hanoverian blood, what the point of even keeping the registry? In 15 years or less, you won’t be able to find any kind of reliable, consolidated marelines. All you are doing is verifying parentage and making the registry completely performance-based.
I suspect my concerns are in the minority. Americans LOVE being able to do whatever the hell they want to with no oversight.[/QUOTE]
I hope your concerns are not in the minority - I would hope some major breeders in Germany who are on the board might have the same concerns before it is voted on in January (it’s not through yet!). I hope they’ll be setting some guidelines when it comes to these proposed changes using outside stallions.
Of the 3 rules that EuroDressage published, the first one is the only one I really and truly agree with, or like, or am excited about. That is: “- International Top Stallions
In order to allow an easier approval of stallions which are part of the international world top, these stallions can be approved for Hanover without being presented at the Hanoverian licensing.”
Because these stallions have proven something - they’ve stayed sound enough to compete at a top level, they’re talented/athletic enough to compete internationally and, usually by then, there are plenty of riding-age youngsters on the ground for breeders to peruse and observe. The older international top stallions have been around the block a few times. These are the ones worth investigating their worthiness for your breeding program. They’ve also usually already been approved in multiple registries. These are the ones I’m excited about. And this is the point that I think is a smart move and perhaps long overdue.
The other 2 points? Not so keen. I don’t agree with young, unproven stallions, or the latest hot young thang, being available without enduring inspections and approved by Hanoverian judging criteria. It’s a privilege to be approved Hanoverian, not a right. Just because XYZ stallion has a perfect, hot’n flashy pedigree and he’s pretty to look at, doesn’t mean he has something to add to the Hanoverian gene pool or that he will work with our mares. I have always liked the fact that Hanoverian standards on stallions were a mean, lean, tough-grinding machine - only the very best made it through and the ones that would work with Hanoverian mares and had something special to add. The stallions have the most potential to revolutionize or damage the breeding herd since they can cover some several hundred mares a year. Lauries Crusador is a strong example of the success of the Hanoverian judging/inspection process. How many stallions were we mare owners saved from by weeding out insufficient stallions who would add little or not match well with the Hanoverian mare base?
I also like the 50% blood rule and requirement and I hope they knock that one right off the table. I have always thought this was a good rule, a logical, sensible rule. It’s what make the horse a Hanoverian, instead of a mutt.
The ability to apply fresh genes and blood to your genetic pool can be a double edged sword.
At the outset, it’s an exciting move, one that countries just starting out with the Hanoverians can use (with diligence and judiciousness) to strengthen their mare lines, or be helpful to countries like New Zealand who have a really hard time even getting semen imported.
But the con of this sword is one that you worry about AHF, and with just cause. Used inappropriately, this can fell and weaken our mare base in one swoop and the results won’t be noticed for 10 years or 3 horse generations (assuming each mare is bred at 3 years). And by then… how would you fix the problem? Or would it even be possible to eradicate the errors??? And ultimately, how many generations would it take to fix a major problem?
The mares being bred today are producing tomorrow’s stallions and broodmares!
And, it was also why I was wondering out loud whether the Verband would post a list of approved sight-unseen outside stallions, or whether we would still have to write to the Verband for pre-consent before we bred a mare to the outside stallion.
I would also be really interested also in hearing input from our friends in Germany about what their thoughts are, and also what they’re hearing from breeders in Germany regarding this?
"The Hanoverian Society wants to aim to become more open towards
- International Top Stallions
In order to allow an easier approval of stallions which are part of the international world top, these stallions can be approved for Hanover without being presented at the Hanoverian licensing.
- Exceptional Young Stallions
Stallions from other studbooks can only be presented for licensing if they have done a 30-day performance test.
- Wider Breeding Spectrum
According to the plans of the Board the so-called 50% rule will disappear in future. This means that all registered mares can then be paired to all registered stallions and the consequent foal can get a Hanoverian brand."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I share the same worries expressed by ahf and rodawn. The 50% rule can be a bit of a pain, but chucking it out entirely seems likely to open a Pandora’s box, unless great care is applied by the breeders.
[QUOTE=MagicRoseFarm;6729782]
Agreed, unfortunately, we did it to ourselves by being so intent on “copying/following” rather than marching to our own drummer in America.[/QUOTE]
We have not copied well, if we had, we would be as productive as they have been. We didn’t start with the same mares, approval process, testing procedures…and we didn’t end up with the same results. SO copying I would say is not what we did.
There are some who have, and they have been successful. The breeding community in Hanover has a completely different mare base then we have here. The fact that they are not discussing it in a public forum is quite normal for them, and I would expect nothing less. Our presumtion that they are not discussing it because we don’t know about it is par for the course for us.
I agree it appears to be a substantial change, but perhaps there is a reason they have suggested it. I think this seems to be missing from the discussion.
Tim
I am on the AHS Board, although soon to be retired. I want to assure all who have expressed concerns about the proposed changes that the AHS Board is deliberately and thoughtfully participating in discussions about the proposed changes with the HV. Many of your concerns and others are being addressed. Can’t say anything more, but please contact a Board member directly if you would like to ‘be heard’. Board members can be found on the AHS website under contacts.
Happy Holidays,
the change to this rule is long overdue. from a jumper perspective, this opens the books up so that if one wants to breed an approved mare with less than 50% Han blood (and the mare does not have a Han foal brand) to a stallion at Celle, for example, who is not Hanoverian foal branded , one could not do that and get Han foal papers legally.
often though if you were a known breeder and had connections, you got Han papers as you could get a permission for the one time breeding. I had a German Han breeder friend who years ago bred her Han mare to Darco and got Han papers on the foal–
[QUOTE=rodawn;6730324]
I hope your concerns are not in the minority - I would hope some major breeders in Germany who are on the board might have the same concerns before it is voted on in January (it’s not through yet!). I hope they’ll be setting some guidelines when it comes to these proposed changes using outside stallions.
Of the 3 rules that EuroDressage published, the first one is the only one I really and truly agree with, or like, or am excited about. That is: “- International Top Stallions
In order to allow an easier approval of stallions which are part of the international world top, these stallions can be approved for Hanover without being presented at the Hanoverian licensing.”
Because these stallions have proven something - they’ve stayed sound enough to compete at a top level, they’re talented/athletic enough to compete internationally and, usually by then, there are plenty of riding-age youngsters on the ground for breeders to peruse and observe. The older international top stallions have been around the block a few times. These are the ones worth investigating their worthiness for your breeding program. They’ve also usually already been approved in multiple registries. These are the ones I’m excited about. And this is the point that I think is a smart move and perhaps long overdue.
The other 2 points? Not so keen. I don’t agree with young, unproven stallions, or the latest hot young thang, being available without enduring inspections and approved by Hanoverian judging criteria. It’s a privilege to be approved Hanoverian, not a right. Just because XYZ stallion has a perfect, hot’n flashy pedigree and he’s pretty to look at, doesn’t mean he has something to add to the Hanoverian gene pool or that he will work with our mares. I have always liked the fact that Hanoverian standards on stallions were a mean, lean, tough-grinding machine - only the very best made it through and the ones that would work with Hanoverian mares and had something special to add. The stallions have the most potential to revolutionize or damage the breeding herd since they can cover some several hundred mares a year. Lauries Crusador is a strong example of the success of the Hanoverian judging/inspection process. How many stallions were we mare owners saved from by weeding out insufficient stallions who would add little or not match well with the Hanoverian mare base?
I also like the 50% blood rule and requirement and I hope they knock that one right off the table. I have always thought this was a good rule, a logical, sensible rule. It’s what make the horse a Hanoverian, instead of a mutt.
The ability to apply fresh genes and blood to your genetic pool can be a double edged sword.
At the outset, it’s an exciting move, one that countries just starting out with the Hanoverians can use (with diligence and judiciousness) to strengthen their mare lines, or be helpful to countries like New Zealand who have a really hard time even getting semen imported.
But the con of this sword is one that you worry about AHF, and with just cause. Used inappropriately, this can fell and weaken our mare base in one swoop and the results won’t be noticed for 10 years or 3 horse generations (assuming each mare is bred at 3 years). And by then… how would you fix the problem? Or would it even be possible to eradicate the errors??? And ultimately, how many generations would it take to fix a major problem?
The mares being bred today are producing tomorrow’s stallions and broodmares!
And, it was also why I was wondering out loud whether the Verband would post a list of approved sight-unseen outside stallions, or whether we would still have to write to the Verband for pre-consent before we bred a mare to the outside stallion.
I would also be really interested also in hearing input from our friends in Germany about what their thoughts are, and also what they’re hearing from breeders in Germany regarding this?
"The Hanoverian Society wants to aim to become more open towards
- International Top Stallions
In order to allow an easier approval of stallions which are part of the international world top, these stallions can be approved for Hanover without being presented at the Hanoverian licensing.
- Exceptional Young Stallions
Stallions from other studbooks can only be presented for licensing if they have done a 30-day performance test.
- Wider Breeding Spectrum
According to the plans of the Board the so-called 50% rule will disappear in future. This means that all registered mares can then be paired to all registered stallions and the consequent foal can get a Hanoverian brand."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[/QUOTE]
I think you are projecting to much of your own personal views onto this. This opens up the approval process for outside stallions. The stallion will still have to be approved.
And maybe you have a very nice GOV or West mare with less than 50% Han blood in her pedigree but who has been approved by the Hann Verband, and you want to use an approved stallion who is not Hann foal branded and who falls short of the 50%--you now have to go to some other registry. The Verband then loses you as a breeder for that year and for that foal. Makes no sense.
I have jumper mares who have Han in the backgrounds of their pedigrees--if I want to breed them to particular bloodlines to link up to those pedigrees and if the selected stallion is approved but not Han foal branded or does not have 50%, I have to go to a different registry.
The 50% rule is limiting with no market advantage-Look at a stallion like Quaid--no Han blood but a Han brand. What is the difference between using him and another top horse that has been approved with no Han blood and no Han brand. Arbitrary rule.[QUOTE=feather river;6735232]
often though if you were a known breeder and had connections, you got Han papers as you could get a permission for the one time breeding. I had a German Han breeder friend who years ago bred her Han mare to Darco and got Han papers on the foal–[/QUOTE]
Ah, but the mare was Hanoverian. The 50% blood rule doesn’t apply to her. And I doubt they would give a breeding allowance to just “any old stallion.”
As I said earlier - I suspect the Verband is seeking to extend its reach. The intent of this new rule is to lure away breeders from Oldenburg, Westphalia, Rhineland, Brandenburg, Mecklenburg, etc., who may be located on the cusp of the Hanoverian breeding area, and are using mares with less than 50% Hanoverian blood. Now they can use any Hanoverian-approved stallion for those mares, regardless of whether he meets the blood rule, and register the foals as Hanoverian. So now stallions like Jazz, Totilas, Sandro Hit, Fidertanz, Quaterback, Balou du Rouet, and myriad other good KWPN, Holsteiner, Trakehner, etc., stallions can be used, and those breeders will be brought into the Hanoverian fold. Eventually, the smaller Verbands that are struggling to survive will be absorbed into the Hanoverian Verband, just as Hesse was.
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