New Dressage organization/Will Faerber/Art2Ride

[Scribbler]

Thank you for those links to Nuno.

Posted this before you linked to the modern women riders!

In both, I see an almost supernaturally quiet seat. To me it resembles a very very good bareback seat, or a good Western seat with the rider “sitting on his pockets” a little. The Portuguese tradition also includes herding cattle and bullfighting. I think you need more time in the saddle than most of us will ever have to get this balance and connection. I can see how his slouch as an older man might come from the rounded lower back and indeed some very good older Western riders end up slouched like this.

On the other hand a good rider can have a variety of anatomical structures, and as long as their lateral symmetry is OK they can develop a good seat. Lateral asymmetry is really what unbalances riders.

I don’t know if women can ride this much on their pockets effectively. Probably we’d need to look at Western riders to see that. Unfortunately there aren’t female dressage riders getting their foundations in bullfighting in the 1920s to compare and the modern dressage riders who lean back don’t have the stillness and balance shown here.

[Scribbler]

@pluvinel

Thank you for those links to contemporary women riders. Those are lovely seats, lovely riders. Including bareback!

[Akogler]

Thank you for the videos. How beautiful they are.

Is there one video of Will or Karen that shows anything even remotely resembling the lovely work evinced in these videos? And yet Will says he “ studied extensively” with Nuno.

What a farce art2ride is. A nasty harmful farce.

[Scribbler]

Somewhere I think FB I read an article by a woman who rode with Nuno as a child. She said by that time he was really on his own planet trying to perfect connection with the horse, and not really feeling like he could communicate that to students. It sounds like he was a bit internally focused. Certainly not competing or having a big public presence. I think this air of mystery might be one of the things that allow the idea of Nuno to be a blank slate onto which many different people can project their own fantasies. There isn’t enough of a public record to verify many claims people make.

[TheDBYC]

@Scribbler

modern dressage riders who lean back don’t have the stillness and balance shown here.

I’m not advocating leaning back. I’m advocating people working to as close to their individual body’s version anatomical neutral as possible. (I rant and rave just as much, if not more, about hunter “duck seat” as you call it ) My other questions: the rider’s line of energy in all of those videos dies before it gets to their legs. Where is that energy going, then? It has to go somewhere. Is an absolutely still seat to be prioritized over all else? Can all of these riders effectively ride through a sudden, violent motion from the horse? (WF absolutely could not in the video upthread.) Do “lightness” and balance alone build a strong, correctly developed & conditioned horse? Is my balance predicated on imposing on the horse to alter his healthiest way of going to balance me?

Yes, no, maybe. It very much depends on the individual horse and rider. There is no one true path or system. You figure out what works best for the horse under you. Most of the time, what works best for the physical longevity of horse & rider is going to be as close to their individual anatomical neutrals as possible. If you watch old cavalry videos, that is exactly what they are doing. No matter what may have been deemed proper baseline position in the school, it reverted to something closer to anatomical neutral as soon as the shit hit the fan & they had to jump out a castle window & slide down a 40’ embankment immediately after.

Believe it or not, I see big differences between the baseline positions of what I’m calling the Nuno school for ease of reference, and that of the riders at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna. That doesn’t make Nuno bad. It also doesn’t confer Godlike status upon him, either.

[pluvinel]

@TheDBYC

My other questions: the rider’s line of energy in all of those videos dies before it gets to their legs. Where is that energy going, then? It has to go somewhere. Is an absolutely still seat to be prioritized over all else? Can all of these riders effectively ride through a sudden, violent motion from the horse?

You haven’t answered my questions…but I will try to answer yours.

I don’t see a “line of energy” that dies. I see a rider in balance with their horse.

Please educate us of the great unwashed masses and 'splain to us what you are advocating and will try to find some of these riders riding a spook

[Scribbler]

The legs in all these videos are still except to cue. They are not carrying weight but they are also not flopping around loosely. The stillness is misleading. If you have balance the legs don’t keep you on.

WF is a joke and nothing he says has any bearing on correct rider or horse biomechanics. He’s akin to some advanced beginner cross rails hunter 15 year old saying all my coaches say I’m a great rider and should go to the Olympics.

WF has no relationship at all to Nuno or even to competent basic riding.

It’s true all the videos are showing riders doing collected work on well schooled horses. Obviously collected work is something you do in short bursts and that takes years to develop.

Your question is whether these riders can or do ride their horses extended or at speed, or on a loose rein. And whether these riders can jump. And what they look like when they are riding a green or misbehaving horse.

My experience has been that riders with that fantastic balance don’t lose it when things get dicey. They aren’t using Stirrups to keep themselves in the saddle. They stay centered. They also work their horses in different neck postures.

[pluvinel]

@Scribbler

I don’t know if women can ride this much on their pockets effectively.

Sure they can…just takes time on a lunge line.

I used to ride with an old cavalry colonel. He said the drill sargeant would light up his cigarette, open up the newspaper and tell the recruits to trot without stirrups. He said when they got tired, the relaxed and quit gripping and found their seats.

I agree with him based on my own journey…But then again, some on this board would consider me one of the neanderthal times.

I owe a lot to this colonel…and a stallion that would regularly buck me off if he disagreed with my seat…It was pure learn to ride to survive…

[pluvinel]

For those who want to see a direct comparison of a soft following seat versus a “rigid,” hard seat…here is as direct a comparison as I know.

Dressage Rider vs Cowboy

Fast forward to here where they swap horses to see the difference

[pluvinel]

@Scribbler

Your question is whether these riders can or do ride their horses extended or at speed, or on a loose rein. And whether these riders can jump. And what they look like when they are riding a green or misbehaving horse.

My experience has been that riders with that fantastic balance don’t lose it when things get dicey. They aren’t using Stirrups to keep themselves in the saddle. They stay centered.

Absolutely…one of the best examples…

Alycia Burton jumping some pretty daunting obstacles

More Alycia Burton…

And even more Alycia Burton…doing a 3-Day cross country course

If you look at her seat and legs…long, still, extended…a rider in balance.

[Nous]

Possibly the Bettina Drummond article?

https://eclectic-horseman.com/bettina-drummond-talks-about-mr-nuno-oliveira/

[TheDBYC]

@Scribbler

The legs in all these videos are still except to cue. They are not carrying weight but they are also not flopping around loosely. Th

Everyone’s toes are pointing downward. And floppy, because they’re not stepping down/ dynamically lengthening the leg.

@pluvinel, yes some women can ride that way. My argument is that it’s not conducive to long term SI health for most of us. Men can tuck their sitz bones under and their coccyx will follow. Not so much for women; coccyx stays pointing back.

You seem very upset/offended by what I’m saying. Why do you care what a random internet stranger has to say if you’re happy with what you’re doing? All that matters is that only matters is that you’re happy & healthy & your horse is too. I’m simply stating my concerns based on my experiences with students coming to me with pelvic/SI disfunction.

Alycia Burton isn’t tucking under. In fact, in the still to this video, she’s got the opposite going on:

Alycia Burton Free rider

Eta: no, @Scribbler, that wasn’t my question. But I don’t mind you answering

[pluvinel]

@TheDBYC

Everyone’s toes are pointing downward. And floppy, because they’re not stepping down/ dynamically lengthening the leg.

@pluvinel, yes some women can ride that way. My argument is that it’s not conducive to long term SI health for most of us. Men can tuck their sitz bones under and their coccyx will follow. Not so much for women; coccyx stays pointing back.

You seem very upset/offended by what I’m saying.

I am not upset or offended. I am trying to understand what you are talking about with these anatomical statements…“stepping down/dynamically lengthening the leg.” ??? What does that mean?

The riders I have used to illustrate my points seem very capable riders that allow the horse freedom to move under the rider. I have seen “equitation” riders who are stiff as boards. They have pretty position but are not effective riders. They are passengers on their horses.

It is well known that male and female pelvic structures are different, yet both males and females seem to be able to sit on their buttocks without pain…barring any injury or pathology. The pelvis of the rider moves as the horse moves…I don’t understand this fixation with “pelvic tilt.”

When I ask these questions I get no answers…so I’m concluding you have no basis for your statements…else you would be clarifying your points.

[Scribbler]

Dressage riders typically keep their toe and heels much more level than jumpers. If you jam your heel down in dressage that leads to a lot of problems with tension.

You can ride dressage off your seat understood as your pelvis to your knees. Your lower legs can give signals as needed but have nothing to do with your security on the horse. It’s very different from getting into forward seat two point where your lower legs are your base of support.

I really admire the very quiet draped leg in these videos. I see so many riders whose calves bounce when they post or who spur at every step. You can’t have subtle aids until your leg is absolutely still except when you need it to signal. Every once in a while I get a few minutes where my lower leg is really just draping and almost motionless and the horse is listening to my seat. Getting half pass with no lower leg aid just seat is a really cool feeling.

[TheDBYC]

@pluvinel

is well known that male and female pelvic structures are different, yet both males and females seem to be able to sit on their buttocks without pain…barring any injury or pathology. The pelvis of the rider moves as the horse moves…I don’t understand this fixation with “pelvic tilt.”

Yes, you’re supposed to “sit back on all your butts” as the German Riding Master clinician we occasionally have at our barn puts it. Why am I “obsessed” with pelvic tilt? Because our muscles are a chain and one part out of whack leads to more parts even more out of whack. Too big a pelvic tilt in either direction is considered an orthopedic pathology. And for good reason.

Nuno & others of that school do more than sit on their butts. They actually tuck their pelvis under. (I’ve had a trainer cue it as "Point your sitz bones towards the pommel.) Doing so is not particularly great for men for various reasons; including the thoracic lordorsis, weak abs, and weak lower back it frequently causes. However, it’s particularly nasty for women because our coccyx points backward & can flex. So, as we attempt to point our sitz bones forward, the coccyx does not follow and is forced to flex to accommodate the sitz bones continue forward. . This can destabilize the entire sacrum & lead to major SI issues. And hip, knees, and even jaw pain. If you delve into my post history, you will find numerous instances of me critiquing the opposite – the butt out hunter perch. Including me telling my child’s coach – no, we won’t be doing that, I’d like for her to make it into her 20’s without needing knee surgery – in response to coach cueing “arch your back, stick your butt out, and heels doooown”.

A good dressage rider, good jumper, and even good jockey all have virtually the same alignment. Who do I think has a good position? Felicitas von Neumann-Cosel is about damn near close to perfection in my book as anyone I’ve ever seen. Coincidentally, she works with a lot of Luisitanos. I took a screen shot of Boyd Martin a while back where he & the horse were so damn near perfectly in synch it was crazy, despite it being towards the end of a CCI***** X-country course. I’ll see if I still have it. Lots of folks ride in ways that (imo) adhere to correct sports biomechanics. I wouldn’t be able to describe what is and is not correct to my eye otherwise. I have opinions regarding the effects on the horse as well. I won’t go into those because the focus is on the human half here.

@Scribbler, I know. I’ve ridden almost exclusively dressage for the past few years. The heel is supposed to be nearly level or slightly lower. Nuno is literally pointing his toes down. It might’ve worked for him. Sure doesn’t work for NP, WF, Karen, or the rest of the A2A crew.

[TheDBYC]

@Scribbler

I saw one photo once from the 1920s where he sits like a gorgeous young bullfighter.

He was born in 1925 per Wikipedia…

Eta: That his body was already breaking down in the 1950’s (when he would’ve only been in his late 20’s/early 30’s) would seem to suggest that he was using it in a way that was unsustainable.

[pluvinel]

@TheDBYC

Yes, you’re supposed to “sit back on all your butts” as the German Riding Master clinician we occasionally have at our barn puts it. Why am I “obsessed” with pelvic tilt? Because our muscles are a chain and one part out of whack leads to more parts even more out of whack. Too big a pelvic tilt in either direction is considered an orthopedic pathology.

Yada, yada, yada…lots of words. The proof of the pudding is how the horse goes under the rider and how effective the rider’s aids are. You have yet to say how these women riders are riding incorrectly. Forget Nuno.

I have also heard the “Point your sitz bones towards the pommel.” It is an instructor trying to help a student find their balance. The teacher can point to the direction, but the student has to walk their own journey.

I have ridden for Charles DeKunffyy. He is known to tell a rider to lean back when they are stooped forward. This is not to say he expects the rider to ride behind the vertical, but by having the rider “sit back” he helps the rider find their way to a more upright posture.

@TheDBYC

Doing so is not particularly great for men for various reasons; including the thoracic lordorsis, weak abs, and weak lower back it frequently causes. However, it’s particularly nasty for women because our coccyx points backward & can flex. So, as we attempt to point our sitz bones forward, the coccyx does not follow and is forced to flex to accommodate the sitz bones continue forward. . This can destabilize the entire sacrum & lead to major SI issues. And hip, knees, and even jaw pain. If you delve into my post history…

If you are having pain or physical problems when sitting in the saddle, then your body is telling you something. I can’t diagnose over the internet. Here is an image of the male and female coccyx. They both show a coccyx that curve under…so I really don’t understand your comments. The “sitz bones” are the ischial tuberosities.

As far as Felicitas…let’s just say I have my opinion. I have seen her ride a friend’s Lusitano stallion and I would not say she has a “soft” seat. Far from it.

As far as the bareback riders with toes down, what would you suggest? A relaxed leg is just that, flaccid…toes down. If the toes were up, the leg would be contracted. If you watch Alycia Burton galloping, jumping or walking, her leg assumes the posture it needs for the job at hand and for her to be effective.

As far as your posting history…I have no clue who you are and this is the first time I’ve replied to your posts.

[TheDBYC]

Oh, Charles DK, eh? I’m happy for you to have the last word here. Seems like it’s more important to you than me.

[pluvinel]

@TheDBYC

Oh, Charles DK, eh?

Oh??? What about it? Again…no discussion.

And here is another image of the male vs female pelvis. You will see that the distance between the ischial tuberosities is greater in the female pelvis…to allow for birth.

The greater distance between the “sitz bones” would indicate better lateral stability in the female seat.

According to the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons, the thoracic curve is kyphosis not lordosis

Since there seemed to be some issues with terminology, I was actually hoping to understand what you were saying…but so be it.

[skydy]

@Akogler

This is Karen riding a green Andalusion gelding. This “”lifts the back”.

I 'm sorry the discussion has stopped. I think it was interesting and that the participants aren’t really that far apart in their beliefs about position.

I think everyone can agree that the unkind, uneducated riding pictured above is not the answer for people who want to stay away from some of the issues brought about by modern day competition riding.