New Horse Problems

[Huntin_Fool]

Hey All,

Here’s the problem-I looked for a horse for a looonnnng time. I have limited funds. No I did not expect a made horse. Yes I’ve brought along OTTBs before. So I got a horse from a dealer I think is reputable. She only had the horse 2 + months. OTTB, 8 years old, had been owned by a beginner rider who ended up being scared of the horse supposedly cause he wouldn’t remain perfectly still but would jig-assured that was the only reason. The daughter supposedly rode the horse successfully.

Unfortunately when I found the horse it was Oct and I work 8-5 so really quickly it was too dark to ride every day.

I took the horse to 3 trainers for lessons, on one hound exercise, on some trail rides, one alone, and to be shod. The horse didn’t like trailering but would get in-best time 10 min, worst 1 hr 25 min. But I can work with that.

Until!!! Tried to take him to be re-shod and tried the successful method of the time before which was to tap not hit, tap, him with a crop when he refused to load, and when he refused, line him back up and tap again. On the 3rd try of this he exploded. Rearing, whirling around me in a circle on the lead rope, bumping me and almost knocking me down. I was waaayyyy too close for my comfort to his front feet hanging on the lead line. Of course I went to the side out of the way, and he’d start trying to run off, trot/canter on the lead like a lunge line, bump into me etc. After about 40 min of this a cowboy guy happened by, offered to help and when he took the lead line the horse took 2 steps, reared, caught the line with his leg and yanked it out of Scott’s hands, and raced around the outside of the pasture at warp speed-also down the little street, etc. We were apparently quite the little show for the ladies in the beauty shop across the street-lol.

When he finally raced back in the pasture Scott said “Well, good thing he’s back in. Good luck.” and left-I don’t blame him it was scary.

So. He is getting in that trailer after I assemble a team and maybe try it in the pasture.

But what do y’all think? Will he do this under saddle? He’s never given me a reason to think he’d pull something like that before. I was astonished at how he just came apart and would NOT quit his bad behavior.

Further info-when I got him he nipped and did not respect personal space. I had worked with him and he was never in my personal space and almost quit nipping. We practiced walking and stopping every day (on the ground of course cause it was dark). I rode him on the weekends and as I said took him to trainers, etc. Though sticky about loading he had never made me think he was capable of something like that. It was no fun at all!!!

Yet I hate to give up on him when he’s never done anything like that under saddle and I looked so hard. I’ve used a crop on him fairly often undersaddle and once or twice he’s sort of shaken his head and once sort of made a noise but that was all.

What do y’all think? Give up and find something else or just hope that he won’t do it under saddle?

And the most annoying part? I was going to trail ride after he was shod and then a trainer (who hunts) was going to take him on his first hunt Sat. But I couldn’t’ go cause for one thing I couldn’t load him!!

Any ideas appreciated!

Regards,
Huntin’Fool

[2ndyrgal]

Well, you asked…

Here is my one, and almost only complete and absolute dealbreaker when purchasing a horse for any reason. If it won’t march on the most god awful, wouldn’t put a dog I didn’t like in it, horse trailer, the very first time, I don’t buy it. Really. I have, and I’m not kidding, not handed over the cash until Trigger was on the trailer. I have, and I’m not kidding, walked away from a horse that was in every other way, wonderful because it had issues loading. One of my most favorite horses loaded perfectly the first time or two. Once he equated getting in the little metal box with “oh, hey, I’m going to have to work and sweat once I get off this thing” we started to have loading problems. He outgrew two trailers. I won’t give you the long story, but he never had a bad ride and because of his size (and all the trailers were big) we bought an enormous 4 star 2+1 with every available window, door and ramp you could get. He walked on it day one. I taught him to self load, in the indoor. About every 12th time, he’d just say “I don’t think so”. He was 18h of stubborn and strong and God couldn’t make him load. No reason, just didn’t want to play that day. For about 30 years, I have been the “go to” girl of “my horse won’t load”. So we are all gussied up for Opening day, we look like we just stepped out of the Horse Country catalog. And Junior picked, that morning to say “not gonna happen” We had a 45 minute, knock down, drag out, mud, blood, come to Jesus fight". It was ugly, he knew better, he was not afraid, he drug all 130lb of me all over our farm, and I was not letting go and if he went on a piece at a time, he was going on the trailer. I got him on, he stood quietly. I drove him out to the middle of his pasture, unloaded him, called a good friend who sells lots of talented horses and told her to come and get him and sell him with full disclosure. At the age I am, the money I spent and the life of Riley my horses get to live, getting on a lovely big trailer and trotting around for a couple of hours isn’t too much to ask. I loved him to death, he was insanely talented, but it wasn’t fun any longer, to never know whether it was going to be a walk right on day or a long day. The guy who bought him had him a month, and called gloating, sure I “didn’t know what I was doing” he’d never had a problem. He called me 3 months later, from SC in August saying “how am I supposed to get him on the trailer?, everyone else is loaded, it’s 90* in the shade and there isn’t any, we’re in the middle of the parking lot and he won’t load”. I said put a flake of hay in there and a bucket of water, and wait. He’ll load when he’s hot and thirsty. (3 hours).
You just found out the point at which he won’t tolerate further discipline. At some point, under saddle, that may rear it’s ugly head, or you may have the twin brother of the horse I sold. Any race horse should load reliably, it’s one of the few gifts that nearly all of them have is that they are used to just jumping in a trailer and nearly all of them (and I should know) load really well. Good luck.

[Huntin_Fool]

Ya’ know, I really think I am where you are. That is my gut feeling. It was certainly my gut feeling last Thurs. when this happened. Not only were his front feet too close to my face but one of the times he bumped me he almost knocked me down and pulled a ligament in my leg which is sore and ruins my other activities. I am afraid this comes from the person who was scared of him letting him get away with enough stuff that he’s figured out who’s biggest and I really will not deal with a horse who is like that.

And yeah, he’s loaded tons of times I’m sure. And the trailer is big-it is only partially enclosed-the top 2 feet have boards so he may not like looking out but still…

Anyway, thank you for the good advice!!
Regards,
Huntin’Fool

[Doctracy]

I would teach him to ground drive,then try that with a driving whip.
That said,I don’t think I’ve had a bad loader in about 30 years. Some slightly reluctant youngsters which would hesitate a few minutes but nobody bad. He needs to learn to walk forward first,then load. Go back to basics using John Lyons,Buck Brannaham,clicker,maybe even t-touch.
I use clicker, leading with a whip on the hips, driving if needed. I think he’s fixable. Get away from the trailer,teach forward first. Maybe even walk through some different obstacles.

[SonnysMom]

I have known a few OTTBs that don’t load into 2 horse straight loads well. They just haven’t been on that type of trailer before and the first couple of times can take some persuading.
OP- I would suggest you practice loading when you have no where you need to be. This way you aren’t rushed and can take all the time you need.
Set everything up carefully. Have the trailer on a nice level spot, swing the center divider over and open the escape door so that you make the trailer as open and inviting as possible.
I prefer to load balky horses in a rope halter and I use a Parelli carrot stick. I like the 12 foot Parelli rope. Long enough and nice and thick. Use gloves.

Timing is everything. I show them the trailer and as long as they are showing interest in the trailer and going forward I stand and wait. I never look back at them. I look where I want them to go. If they start to go back I tap on the hip. The moment they go forward I stop. If they stand and vegitate on the ramp and are not actively looking at the trailer/sniffing then I tap them. If they show any signs of forward I stop tapping. This includes leaning forward.
Don’t get mad, don’t get rushed. Remember you have all the time in the world and all the patience in the world.
If he goes to come over you I let them run into the Parelli stick or raised arm. I do not hit them with it I let them encounter the object when the try to come in my space. If they try to go around the side of the trailer away from me I let them hit that rope halter a few times.
I helped one person load a really bad draft horse. She tied him to the back of the trailer with a lunge line and then had a second line to actually lead him with. This way if he got away from her he couldn’t go too far.
Since most of us and our horses are used to being only handled from the left it is sometimes easier to load the horse on the right side of the trailer first. I know this isn’t the correct side but once you get them loading well you can fix that.
Most of the time a loading issue is really a leading issue. If you can lead them over, between and through anything they generally load well. You may need to start with some basic leading exercises and sending exercises. Use the same gear that will use to load. Do some basic ground work until his response time is crisp. You stop, he stops instantly, if you turn he turns, when you walk he marches next to you but not in your space. If you cross a pole/tarp/board he marches across next to you without jumping it. Go between two barrels, keep closing the distance on those barrels until they are touching his sides. At some point you are sending him between the barrels because both of you won’t fit side by side. You can use a wing standard and the fenceline or two wing standards to raise the height and increase the feeling of claustraphobia. When he is doing all of those exercises confidently then you move to trailer loading.

If he has gotten worse about loading since you got him you need to reflect on how you drive with a trailer. Are you giving him the nicest ride possible? Are you accelerating slowly and smoothly from a stop, are you anticipating yours stops and slowing down well in advance of the stop sign? Are you braking well in advance of the curve and not too hard during the curve? Are you taking the curve as big as the road will allow? (Don’t cut to the inside of the on-ramp).
Everything should be as smooth as possible. You need to really anticipate that light. If it has been green a while it likely is going to turn red soon so maybe backing off the gas in anticipation of that stop is a good idea.
Maybe you need to take the slightly longer way on the less curvy road to get to the farrier. Don’t take the road with all the S turns. I am not saying you are a bad driver. I obviously don’t know you. But many people drive a truck and trailer like the trailer isn’t back there. While it isn’t legal in most states I think that everyone that drives a horse trailer should have to ride in an empty horse trailer for about a 15 or 20 minute ride while they stand up. No holding on with your hands, you can balance with your hands not grip. It will provide some understanding of the noise of a horse trailer and the amount of adjustment the horse needs to make while you are driving.

[Huntin_Fool]

Hey All,

I really really appreciate all help! Just to give a bit more info-the trailer is big. And it’s open-like a stock trailer, closed til like the last 2 feet then has 2 board sized metal strips til the top which is tall. He has plenty of room-maybe too much? There’s no partition. I have a hay net. And of course you don’t know me or my driving I promise I am a careful trailer driver-I’m known for it.

The horse has loaded for me-and I’m counting here-at least 19 times-there and back. Sure I’ve had to stop quickly at least once but honestly not very often-no story about the jerk who pulled right out in front of me.

He will walk right up to the trailer-or did-but then just stop and stare around like he’s bored. I don’t let him look around, he gets to sniff the floor a couple of good times but then can’t keep doing it-he has to just stand there and be bored. I have a bucket of grain to try to lure him. That was until the tapping on his hip worked so well time before last and I tried it the last time with the unfortunate result.

Right now I wouldn’t try to tap him on the hip a la Parelli-that’s what I tried when he acted so awful. He came back to the trailer and stood a few times but when I’d back him up-which I was using as “no” instead of the whip tap-like about every 3rd time he’d start the rearing trying to run off thing. And far from calming down he got worse til it was a fight to get him back to the trailer but I swear when he did-he’d just standing there with that infuriating bored look.

I had been working on his personal space issues and he was doing very well-not in the personal space at all-still the occasional try to nip but generally much better.

When he was doing all this he started trying to nip again-which is one of the things that made me think it was more of a power trip.

Sigh! I will try long lineing and lungeing. How he acts there should be a clue.

Thank you all for the ideas and if y’all have any more please share!!!

Thanks
Huntin’Fool

[Linda]

When I was teaching my young horse to load, he would NOT go in the trailer. So I drove the truck and trailer into his field, tied the back door open and put his food in a hay net in the trailer. For the first 2 days, I dont think he ate anything. Then he started putting 2 feet inside, and reaching his neck as far forward as he could, grab a bite of hay and bolt back out of the trailer. I had boots on him, and could watch the shenanigans from my office in the house. Essentially I just let him figure it out himself. Once he got used to getting in the trailer for food, he was fine. I dont haul him much these days as our Eq center is a 15 minute hack from our barn. But if we are going somewhere and its been a while since he was loaded, I hook up the truck and trailer again and feed him out of it for a day or so. He figures it out pretty quickly thankfully.

[SLW]

Couple things to add to the well thought out replies that have already been offered. The horse sounds spoiled and he may be repairable with some time.

1. If you choose to lead him into the trailer make sure you are not blocking his entrance. He needs to know he can get his body past you. Ideally his head is at the side of your right shoulder.

2. Better yet, send him into the trailer. To train, “send him into the stall” by standing at the open stall door, tap his shoulder/hip and send him past you into the stall while you hold onto the lead rope. Now either go in the stall and “send” him past you or gently pull him out past you. Repeat, repeat. Sometimes make him “whoa” at the half way point. The goal is to control his feet. All of this is successful if you stay light, light, light with the ques. If it becomes a yank, whack, pull, push deal you will loose. Light, light, light.

If you can, doing some in hand/ground work where your work on the 3 different sections- shoulder, middle and haunch- would go a long ways to gaining control.

[BeastieSlave]

I’m not going to get into the discipline thing, but I’ll share what worked for my old mare. She was an older chestnut TB when I got her. She’d been around the block plenty of times and loaded up easily enough in the beginning. I never had any trailering issues with her, but she became impossible to load. I tried everything - beatings, bribes, drugs, force, etc.

Eventually, I sat down on the floor in the bookstore and read the chapter on training horses to load in John Lyons’ book “On Horses”. It made sense (similar to SLW’s suggestions), I went home and tried it. In two 30 minute lessons, that old mare was trained to self-load. I swear it was amazing! I’m not a huge NH fan and I don’t have all the books and videos, but it worked. He didn’t use any gimmicks, I never put myself in danger, and she behaved pretty much exactly like he described in the book. I ended up retraining all my beasties and even worked with a few that belonged to other people.

Good luck!

[Calamber]

If a horse is resisting strongly, I would never tap the on the hindquarters, never, I might use a dressage type whip or rope to brush them with but no hitting, not even a tap if they are bunched or tensed up. I keep their feet moving around the back of the trailer as I would do on a lunge, don’t push beyond their breaking point and just let them have their time to sniff and explore. Also as SLW says, do not block either entry or exit until the horse is calm and definitely work on ground work on the three areas of the body. Get him comfortable with you asking him to move off on all areas. Key is comfort and calm. I have to bold a comment that SonnysMom made, “Most of the time a loading issue is really a leading issue”. The horse is not on “a power trip”, he has been frightened and he lacks respect, but how you gain that respect makes all of the difference as to whether he will fight you or work with you.

The issue is that the horse was forced multiple times until it said nope. I do not know what method John Lyons uses that BeastieSlave recommends but if it worked without force do it. I saw a trainer who used NH load a very claustrophobic horse who was six years old and had never been trailered in his life into and out of a trailer that was sitting at a slight angle in a small ditch, it will work, you have to be patient. That horse became one of the best loading horses I had ever seen but we put him loose in the back two stalls of a three horse stock type trailer at first. Lesson is, do not make a blood and sweat, come to Jesus battle out of this or you will have a rogue who will not load at some point when it is of life or death importance. Never make it that important, always use the most kind methods, and if you cannot do it, find someone who will.

[dog_amp_horsemom]

I haven’t read the other long replies - but - as Beastieslave said - get yourself a natural horse trainer book ( she used John Lyons) - Buck Brannamon is another good one - educate yourself on one of their methods and take your time with him - he is scared for some reason and their method’s are probably what will build his confidence and make him easy to load in the future.
Since I learned their methods many yrs ago I do not EVER have a problem loading a horse.- that goes for ANY horse.

[BeastieSlave]

The main thing I took away from the John Lyons book was that the horse needed to be taught to load - so that it would do it every time I asked - not forced to load that one time. This involved a few steps, but the first was to teach the horse to walk forward (past you) when you ask. Once that can be done, in terribly simplified terms, you ask it to walk forward onto the trailer. I decided to work on this when we had some time and weren’t actually planning to go anywhere.

Lyons laid out a scenario that involved push-back from the horse and my mare behaved pretty much exactly as predicted. I broke the lessons into two, 30-40 minute sessions and by the end of the second one, she was self loading and standing quietly while I closed the trailer by myself. It seemed miraculous, but it was really pretty much just common sense!

[gypsymare]

I have used a method on a few horses who got sticky or violent loading. First and foremost you need to take the attitude that you have all the time and not a care in the world. Breathe deep. Clip a lunge line on the horse and run it through the front of the trailer and back to you. Do not use it to pull the horse on. This is just to straighten out their head of they try to go sideways. Instead of the line you can use a horse savvy person to stand near their neck holding a lead but I find the line works better as they can’t run the person over.

Standing at the hip, take a soft cotton rope and a bored attitude, rhythmically swing it against a hip and immediately stop and praise any forward momentum. Yawn. Start the swing again. It’s soft, more annoying than anything. I’ve found a whip gets a horse ready to fight but the rope is not intimidating. It sounds simple but can be surprisingly effective.

[Libby2563]

[QUOTE=Huntin’Fool;8450809]
Right now I wouldn’t try to tap him on the hip a la Parelli-that’s what I tried when he acted so awful. He came back to the trailer and stood a few times but when I’d back him up-which I was using as “no” instead of the whip tap-like about every 3rd time he’d start the rearing trying to run off thing. And far from calming down he got worse til it was a fight to get him back to the trailer but I swear when he did-he’d just standing there with that infuriating bored look.[/QUOTE]

If I understand this correctly, after he reacted badly to the tapping you started backing him up instead? I could see how this might contribute to explosive behavior by confusing him as to what he’s expected to do. Go forward? Back up? Also, some horses are not super comfortable backing up more than a step or two and it may have made him a bit panicky. I would definitely not use that as a “no.” (Also, I would think of tapping or rope swinging as a mildly annoying but clear “go,” not a “no.”)

You’ve gotten a lot of good advice and things to try before you decide whether this is a dealbreaker. Two horses I’ve owned have had at least one loading meltdown and I would not have sold either of them for that reason alone. (FWIW, the one I still have now self-loads 100% reliably.)

[GrayMare]

To me, it seems like more of a problem as to how the horse acted like a (dangerous) jerk, not so much the loading problem. There are plenty of horses that don’t want to load or do other things but you don’t feel like you are going to get dragged or trampled. In fact, from what you describe–him loading reasonably 19 times–I’m not entirely sure it exactly is a “loading” problem. Maybe you can figure him out and maybe you can’t, but if you can’t, life is to short to waste on the wrong horse.

Similar to 2ndyrgal, I also have certain traits I really dislike in horses. Mine is less specific–I hate drama. I can take predictable quirks, but I have very little patience for horses that turn normal daily events into some kind of a rodeo. Some horses can get with the program, some can’t. There’s a lot of advice on good ways to train a horse to load in the above posts, and most likely with some help the loading issue can be improved, but I think the more relevant question is: Is this a horse you want to be investing yourself in? Is he a decent horse with a quirk that needs to be worked through? Or is he a drama queen who once the loading problem is solved is still going to periodically ruin your day (or hurt you) with uncalled for dramatic scenes?

[Beverley]

My impression is similar to GrayMare’s, attitude, not loading, is the problem- though loading is where he chooses to take his stand. I tend to like dealing with such issues before giving up on a horse.

I don’t disbelieve you when you say you are a good trailer driver and thus not throwing horses around turns, but might there be some other issue with the trailer- loose mats, footing that somehow seems insecure to this horse? I once sent a horse away who trailered fine, and he came back trailering not so fine, problem was quickly resolved but what I learned was that he had been crammed into a too small trailer and so couldn’t balance himself as he normally would.

When one exhibits bratty behavior which of course is dangerous owing to the size of the animal, no matter what the situation the horse gets a come to Jesus chat from me- I’m not talking beating up or jerking around, I’m talking instantly making myself mentally five times his size in his eyes and making it clear that certain things are very much across the line. Now- safety first- if I can’t achieve that in the situation, it might be a case of getting the horse into a round pen for a bit of work, and going back for more work as needed each time. However you choose to load (I prefer self-load and unload), he needs to do it calmly, matter of factly, politely. Some will say it’s not a loading problem, it’s a leading problem, and as regards the trailer, some I’ll load and unload repeatedly on random practice days, the message is, you go where I lead you. It’s good to just have truck and trailer hooked up for such a purpose.

[Huntin_Fool]

Well, honestly I have to say he was never forced-as in lunge line through the trailer and tied to the hitch, etc. I asked him to get in all the 18 times I loaded him-as in stood there, shook the feed bucket, and gave the lead rope a tug. A couple of times at barns where I’d trailered him someone stood behind him, and in that case he always jumped right in-but I don’t have anyone at my barn. The time before I tapped him a la John Lyons on the hip and he jumped right in. Time 19 asked the old way, say 2x, then gave him a hip tap, which he ignored 2x-just moved away-then exploded 3rd time. And not only reared and tried to shove past me that time but kept on doing it. As in I quit with the tap and just lead him back to the trailer and he’d do it a time or two and then start all the rearing and bumping me and trying to jerk loose, etc.

I was using the phrase “power trip” for when an animal is trying to show you that it, not you, is the boss. That is what I meant by that.

And he really did not seem scared. In between being resistant, he’d walk up to the back of the trailer, no big deal. In fact he always did that.

I will certainly try John Lyon’s method-except for the hip tap!

[BeastieSlave]

If I recall correctly, John Lyons said to expect a bit of push back after some cooperation. I know my mare blew up after a few near-loading attempts. I stayed calm, returned to where she was comfortable, and just kept at it.
It all made sense when I read the loading chapter in the book and played out pretty much like Lyons outlined. Good luck!

[SuzieQNutter]

You need to teach him to load. I would say ask for someone to teach him to load as you don’t have the skills.

The first thing you do is have the trailer in a yard with the fence not oto far behind so that when he rears and goes back it is only a short way as he is stopped by the fence. You make it uncomfortable when he is doing stuff like that. You don’t drop the rein or step away as that is a release of pressure and you are teaching him to do it more.

Before asking him to load teach him to walk when you click and he walks before you walk, teach him to halt when you say halt and he halts before you stop.

Teach him to go back with a thumb on his shoulder and the word back. Always 2 signals for back. Finger waggled side to side and back or a tug on the tail and the word back. All taught with the signal and a lunge rein attached.

Get rid of the whip. Just a rope halter and leadrope or bridle with reins.

Click to go forward. Then 2 hooves on. Halt. Praise. 2 hooves off. Praise. 4 hooves on. Halt. Praise. The more times you back him off the more times he will go back on in the future.

2 hooves in the float. Halt. Praise. Back off. Halt. Praise. 4 hooves in the float. Halt. Praise. Back off halt Praise.

In the end you can go in back 2 strides go forward 2 strides, back 4 strides go forward 2 strides. This means the horse comes off slowly without rushing backwards.

Also in the end you click and the horse goes in and you do up behind then tie. NEVER tie without something behind. To unload untie, come behind undo and a small tug on the tail and the word back for them to unload.

Yes it is possible with the horse that won’t load. My stepfather wouldn’t listen to my Mum or me about his horse and in the end he got out the guy who taught me just to prove that he had a horse that would not load. Yes the type who put out a trail of carrots to try and get the horse in.

That horse loaded in 5 minutes with the above method and someone it respected instead of Oh it’s only dad I don’t have to go on.

As with all methods the timing is key. If your timing is off as you have already found out, you teach the horse to do the opposite of what you want. It is harder to retrain than it is to train, so the next person now has to undo his training of how not to load.

[Ambitious_Kate]

He won’t load and now you are stuck with him. Forget all the tap and feed tactics. This horse is not moving where you put him. Period. A horse has to lead and he won’t. Otherwise he would get on the trailer.

John lyons isn’t going to correct this. You need to find a cowboy who will teach the horse to lead. YOU have to teach this horse to lead. Rex Peterson can teach you how to teach the horse to follow and you to lead; buck branamen probably. Any of the secrets to loading a horse techiniques are going to waste your time and money. Good luck.