New Horse, self-mutilation or...?

[OneGrayPony]

So, my new lovely horse has random attacks of what appear to be self-mutilation…but really atypical. I actually haven’t witnessed any of them, which makes this much harder. He’s a very easy keeper, in good flesh, and randomly he’ll bite violently at his flanks and kick out…and then he’ll be fine a second later. One of the barn workers said that she saw him chasing his tail in one of these fits.

Caveat, he’s just coming 6, and he’s quirky anyway.

So, other than ulcers (which I’m going to treat for, but I doubt that is really the issue) and behavioral (self-mutilation)…what else would you look for? He is a very very mouthy busy horse, and he’s also very itchy, both of which I suppose could cause such a thing but his flanks don’t seem to be itchy (his butt on the other hand, he loves to have scratched). He did have a powerpak when I got him and we pulled a fecal and treated for whatever was left.

I just want to make sure I’m not missing something major, like an equine psychosis, or…I don’t know…it’s just hard because I haven’t seen it.

I will say that he moved from a very quiet facility to a busy boarding barn which makes me wonder if it’s stress. He is out 24/7 on grass hay.

Anyway - ideas are welcome!

[Highflyer]

Is he actually damaging himself?

[PrincessPonies]

To me the kicking sounds similar to my friend horse. He’s insulin resistant and can’t have sugar. He’s never shown any of the other normal signs since they’ve always kept it well under control. If he continues you can ask the vet.
The biting and tail does sound like a sick issue. You could try bathing him with some kind of medicated shampoo and see if that helps.

[warriorhorse]

Have a stud who self mutilates bites his flanks squealing kicking out. Will do this for 15 minute stretches spinning in circles biting squealing kicking. He lives outside with a gelding. Does it less now then when I first got him but he does inflict bite wounds that are bloody.

[alibi_18]

Friend’s horse had a really dirty sheat/huge bean. Have it cleaned.

It could very well be ulcers too.

Or some hard to kill worms.

Your guys is truly uncomfortable.

[OneGrayPony]

Good ideas on IR, sheath and skin. Will follow all of those leads. No he is not actually doing any damage, yet, right now he is just leaving wet spots on his flank when he does it. Then he is just fine.

He is bright and curious, quite honestly just a very busy horse. The only other thing that I can think of is that he is a tiny bit backsore way back near where the cantle is. But it is quite slight. He only reacts when pushed on quite hard.

He is only being worked 3 days a week by my trainer and I longe or do groundwork on other days. No signs of any lameness. Honestly it’s not consistent enough for me to call it pain unless that pain is super inconsistent.

[digihorse]

Ummm… sigh… male horses… usually frustrated stallions will do this as a means of masturbation. They can do themselves some serious damage with the kicking (not counting the damage to their stalls/corrals). The owner of the one horse I know who does this has been unsuccessful in totally preventing it… but kicking chains did help. Good luck.

[Ambitious_Kate]

I would echo the sheath thing. I’ve seen geldings do this with a seriously gunked up sheath. Hope that’s all it is!

[CanteringCarrot]

I have a gelding that self mutilates. It’s basically the top reason as to why he is not a stallion. He would break skin and there are theories that it is a genetically inherited trait. So I’m not taking any chances. Now, since he is gelded, he does not break skin or damage himself. He occasionally bites at his flank and kicks out. Or his chest. He has scars (only really visible when clipped) on his sides and flanks. This happened before I owned him, so I’m not 100 percent sure how he was managed before age 4.

His episodes are rare but they can involve spinning around bitting at his tail/flanks. Kicking out, and biting followed by a kick. The typical thing that these horses do is sniff their flank area as if they are another horse, bite or squeal and kick out. It is usually a short episode and they carry on like nothing happened. There are ways to help manage these horses that truly have this problem that is strictly mental. But you must eliminate potential pain causes. It really can be a mental problem and there has been research done. Some studies equate it to Tourette’s Syndrome (quite interesting!).

My guy that does it js in good weight, healthy, and highly intelligent. I joke (in somewhat poor taste) that he’s so smart he’s neurotic. He likes mental stimulation and interacting. He’s a fantastic horse otherwise. His episodes are quite rare now.

I posted a thread on this awhile back, I will see if I can find it …

[Abbie.S]

OP, where do you live? Any chance you have really sandy soils?

I know of one horse who did this for years, turns out the poor thing had several enteroliths that they venture were growing over the course of several years. So during these periods of what they thought was self-mutilation, the horse was actually probably having colicky abdominal pain due to the stones. One of them formed around a piece of sharp-ish plastic they think the horse must have broken off a water bucket (this horse was also mouthy and liked to chew on things).

It’s probably a long shot, but worth considering, although enteroliths are usually discovered incidentally and it tends to be a watch and wait sort of thing.

[Cynical25]

What part of the country are you in? My super-sensitive-skinned, fly-allergic gelding is a stomping, flank biting, tail swishing mess right now in North Texas, since all the “no-see-ums” are out. He was stomping and kicking his hind legs so much, that he’s currently short striding behind from muscle aches. Had to pull out his fly sheet, hood, mask, and leg wraps already.

[Simkie]

Have you tried him on Equishure or Ritetrac or Succeed? Hind gut ulcers are worth investigating/ruling out.

[OneGrayPony]

I don’t live in a sandy soil location, but he came from MI, where there is sandy soil (I’ve only had him for 2 months). Do they find enteroliths on ultrasounds? I know they find them during a colic surgery, but I’ve been a bit behind on my vet med so maybe there’s an easier Dx route. He could very well have ingested something as he’s…one of those horses that puts everything in his mouth. Yesterday he was walking around the indoor with a cone, flipping it back and forth in his mouth.

He doesn’t really display any stud-like behaviors, but I could have his blood pulled maybe to check to see if there could be a “little bit left in there”. He was gelded pretty early, but who knows.

Vet is coming on Friday to do spring shots, so we’ll do a sheath cleaning at the same time.

Since I’ve never seen him do it, it’s harder to diagnose. The people who have witnessed it haven’t said anything about squealing though. Does that usually accompany the self-mutilation behaviors?

[betsyk]

I have no experience with this. Would turning him out with another gelding who will play - hard - make any difference? Assuming all possible physical causes are accounted for.

[OneGrayPony]

Sadly, I’m in the NE, where we just got snow - no bugs yet here. I wish it were as easy as that.

I just added succeed to his smartpak. He just doesn’t seem ulcery, but that could be - he did travel a long way to get here and that could have kicked off something. Unfortunately, our local vet doesn’t have a horse-length scope so I’d have to send him a few hours away to get scoped, and that wouldn’t find hind-gut ulcers would it?

Horses, man.

[OneGrayPony]

He had been out with a large herd of boys, and was playing very hard. He’s in a paddock right now because he got kicked in the shoulder from tugging on a playmate’s blanket to the point that he got irritated and whaled him. He was stiff for a few days but he can probably go back in with them now.

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone - this one is stumping me and I’m so glad to hear other ideas, because I’m just at a loss!

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

I would absolutely second the idea of cleaning/checking his sheath - truthfully, I’d have the vet out to sedate so you can really dig and make sure you’ve got them all.

One other thought - was he gelded before you got him? If so, is it possible he’s a cryptorchid and they only got one?

One other random thought - you said he has slight pain at/behind the cantle. Could it be kidney-related?

[Abbie.S]

No, a regular scope cannot see hind gut, which is why it tends to be a diagnosis of exclusion.

And another no to enteroliths being visible on US…there is some debate about this but the majority of vets agree that the surface of the stone is too similar to gut surfaces to make US a viable diagnostic tool. Xray, on the other hand, does tend to show stones quite well.

Squealing doesn’t necessarily have to accompany a self-mutilator.

Ulcers, unfortunately, tend to be excluded by people whose horses are otherwise calm, happy in their work and in good flesh with good appetites because all of those things are the opposite of you stereotypical ulcer-y horse. IME presentation doesn’t actually fit within the typical box we think of when we think of a horse with ulcers.

[warriorhorse]

For what it’s worth with my stud who’s 6 years old,was treated for ulcers both gastric and hindgut. Vet cleaned sheath here recently. All this and he still self mutilates almost daily ,so those things don’t necessarily stop the self mutilating. Reason he was sold previous owner was tired of dealing with him. He does better living outside with a buddy. Lived a solitary life before he came here,he’s much happier now being outside with my gelding. Think it helps there are no mares anywhere around here too.

[CanteringCarrot]

They don’t have to squeal. They also don’t have to act studish or have high testosterone. It’s becomes/is something hardwired in their brain. Some can be managed easier than others. Their environment and social interactions are important if it is truly a self-mutilating horse.

At what times does he do this? Is there any pattern? Or just random. Did it start when he started solo turnout?

My thread FWIW: https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/horse-care/9858102-self-mutilation-in-horses

Obviously don’t give up looking at the physical aspects. If it is a pain issue and you can find and treat it, that would be ideal.