New Organization- United Dressage Jumping Club (UDJC)

[Paint_Party]

I was not thinking about the major associations but more like the local groups or circuits. Perhaps sponsor a few classes or a division at a county-level series as a means to introduce the concept, and building on that.

I agree that the inner sanctum or upper echelon of showing isn’t much interested in change. But maybe UDJC might prosper by starting small with modest goals instead of trying to convince people that what they’ve been doing is all wrong.

It’s just my 2cents. I hope he’s successful and any participants have fun.

[OverandOnward]

@Paint_Party

How will this format compete against the more traditional, established local circuits?

What I took away from the meeting discussion - UDJC won’t compete against them. My impression (I can’t speak for them) is that UDJC is not trying to go up against the traditional shows. Rather, to offer an alternative for people who aren’t well satisfied with the traditional shows. Again I can’t speak for them, but that was my impression of their purpose.

People who are already functioning well in the traditional USEF-umbrella formats don’t need UDJC, so therefore are not the target audience – that’s my understanding. They probably won’t be interested in any case. Based on his meeting remarks – although I can’t speak for UDJC.

People already happy in the traditional show format might take an occasional UDJC show as an informal, off-piste alternative for schooling. Not leaving a record in a USEF organization. Perhaps for a green horse or newbie rider. Kind of like a schooling show or jumper show now, with more open entry options at different heights.

My impression is that the real target is other riders who focus less on showing, but who do enjoy getting out to a few shows a year, who will be better served by the UDJC format – that’s my takeaway. I count myself in that lot.

The traditional formats don’t work well for me and for some others. The traditional show restrictions on cross-entering divisions alone limit what they can do in the traditional format. The timed jump-offs for tiny/small-jump jumper classes are not good, IMO, I’m agreed with UDJC on that. But there is no getting around it, that’s the only way the jumper class is offered. Some of us think hunter judging rewards the wrong things, although others disagree – but for those who think so, UDJC may have an alternative we like better. It doesn’t have to have the label ‘hunter’.

USEF sails onward as always. UDJC offers an alternative for those who appreciate and/or can get something out of their focus.

I do think there will be a major learning period during UDJC’s first shows and some things will change.

Major caveat – If I’m correctly understanding what UDJC is saying! LOL

Hopefully UDJC will check in and clarify if this is a correct impression or not.

[OverandOnward]

@Paint_Party

… instead of trying to convince people that what they’ve been doing is all wrong.

To the extent that this is how people already well into traditional showing are hearing the UDJC message, you are right, they are not going to take kindly to the way it is being presented.

I have assumed that the message being given in a way that is so alienating to the traditional showers is a message in and of itself, that they are not the target audience.

But UDJC hasn’t said that directly. Other that being so openly and loudly disrespectful of these traditions is a message in and of itself. That the people invested in those traditions are hearing very clearly.

Which leaves the portion of the horse community that enjoys showing up to a point, but is frustrated and equally questioning of the traditional formats, as the audience most receptive to UDJC. UDJC seems to believe that there are far more of these riders than traditional showing knows or appreciates. They may be right – we’ll see.

I’ve assumed that this disrespect toward traditional showing was intentional on UDJC’s part. It’s hard to imagine anyone on a public platform would be so tone-deaf as not to realize how much this alienates those invested in traditional showing. But UDJC will have to speak for itself on what they actually intend.

[findeight]

Realize these may not be German words to live by but you sure can catch more flies with honey then vinegar and just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine (or riding theory) go down.

Might think about that.

[Paint_Party]

@OverandOnward

Which leaves the portion of the horse community that enjoys showing up to a point, but is frustrated and equally questioning of the traditional formats, as the audience most receptive to UDJC.

Just plucked this one sentence out of your many good comments. I do get your point and this probably is (I would guess) the target demographic.

Like I said in my first post, hypothetically the UDJC would’ve been a nice option for some of our green WBs who just needed to get to a competition environment and jump around a little and do the dressage test.

[Dr_Doolittle]

I actually wish this organization would come to the East Coast, I’m in Northern Virginia and we have a ton of horses and competitions around here, but this would certainly fill a niche!

Not only do we have a lot of recognized competitions, but we have many schooling shows: Starter Trials, CTs, Hunter shows, Jumper shows, and Dressage. I have some lower level students and I coach at shows in the area, and I see a good bit of “bombing around courses” by kids in particular.

Because Starter is now a recognized division and there are way more people “dipping their toes” in the eventing water, there are plenty of unqualified “coaches” who have no idea of the rules of eventing, and who don’t work with their students on basics and fundamentals - just instruct them to “get around the courses” any which (sometimes scary) way - and make the time! It would be wonderful to have classes that are actually judged on how well the rider and horse complete the course, not just how fast they gallop through the finish flags

I’m a huge fan of local schooling jumper shows that use closest to optimum time to place horses/riders, since that encourages a steady rhythm and not “turning and burning” over 2’6".

IMO this concept would be a welcome addition and would actually encourage good riding! Of course all of this remains to be seen and I guess we’ll have to wait to find out how it plays out in Texas first.

[volvo_240]

@Midge

but professional kitchen’s are run by the most egotistical a$$hole you’ve ever met in charge of a squad of drug dealing felons who’ve all fathered six children.

As someone who spent their early 20s as a server this has me dead with its accuracy.

[OverandOnward]

@Dr_Doolittle

Because Starter is now a recognized division and there are way more people “dipping their toes” in the eventing water, there are plenty of unqualified “coaches” who have no idea of the rules of eventing, and who don’t work with their students on basics and fundamentals - just instruct them to “get around the courses” any which (sometimes scary) way - and make the time! It would be wonderful to have classes that are actually judged on how well the rider and horse complete the course, not just how fast they gallop through the finish flags

It is kind of a crazy thing – but to my eyes as someone who has been active in LL eventing, the UDJC concept would be a far better prep for a horse trials than the schooling shows I’ve used for that purpose.

Also, the concept of pace in eventing / horse trials is not ‘bombing around’ a course – I know that’s not what you are saying. But yes the incompetent trainer can create that very wrong impression of cutting the corners and keeping the pedal down all the way. The horse manages. But that’s not eventing / horse trials. That’s how people set themselves up for a bad fall when they think they are ready to go up a level because their horse skated over a bunch of low jumps at a fast pace.

In horse shows, horse trials, and home schooling, over small jumps you can get away with a lot of crappy sloppy riding. You don’t have to get better to stay alive and even win some ribbons. With the super-low jumps now prevalent in American horse shows at the lowest levels, probably the average horse won’t trip over one. So the rider does not learn line, approach, pace and spot, because their horse easily saves them, every day, over micro “jumps”.

I was kind of excited to see that the UDJC wants to emphasize “line”. I’m guessing a lot of lower-level riders in America don’t even know what that is. They may be in for a moment when it comes up in their UDJC comments and the judge’s eyebrows go up when they ask.

[Equibrit]

In my view, the worst thing an outsider can do in this situation is tell Americans how it “should” be done.

[Xanthoria]

@findeight

Realize these may not be German words to live by…

IMEX the Germans value directness over tact all day every day, and in fact view anything less than blunt honesty as simpering spinelessness, which may contribute to what I’m reading here. Or it may not!

Qualifications: Was married to a German and survived.

[OverandOnward]

In the last couple of weeks I had the chance to touch base with a couple of committed and successful USEF horse-show trainers here in the north Houston area, where UDJC is launching. Synopsis version, this is what they said.

They like the ideas and the horsemanship-centered approach of the UDJC. Both especially agree that timed-jump-offs for very-low jumper classes are inappropriate, and neither allows their students to do those. Apparently the A shows are starting to take time jump-offs out of lower-level unrecognized classes? Not sure about this but it was mentioned. Also, while they don’t appreciate the negative aspersions from UDJC on recognized shows, they aren’t taking those remarks personally, at this point.

But … both pointed out that the calendar in this area is chock full of USHJA and USDF shows. Literally, almost every weekend. Especially given our mild winters and covered facilities. Those shows also include unrecognized schooling-type classes. So, their programs (as trainers and riders) are already deeply embedded into the USEF world, year round. As are their clients and students. (Not every rider & horse in their programs attend every show, of course.)

They just don’t have calendar room for UDJC. I think this is not a surprise. As I mentioned above, I don’t think that people already thriving in the USEF world are going to be much interested in UDJC. That’s to be expected.

They think it’s possible that there are some number of riders who aren’t seriously invested in the USEF who are likely to be interested in UDJC. How many? They say they don’t have a way to know.

As of this moment these said that they are looking at UDJC shows on a par with unrecognized schooling shows. One or more might come in handy. But not something they see as consistently part of their program.

Again, I think these folks are not the target audience for UDJC. Although I don’t know what UDJC has to say about that. But it was interesting to hear their take on UDJC.

[OverandOnward]

For what it’s worth, the first ever UDJC show is next weekend Jan. 11th-12th. It’s almost here – always an attention-getting thought for those committed to a show. I don’t have a horse or students to take, so won’t be showing.

A friend and I are hoping to go by at least one day for a couple of hours to see what’s going on. That’s our only chance to visit. I’m not sure how much we will see with such a quick look, though.

Is anyone following this thread planning to show or attend at UDJC for one or both days? Would you be willing to post your impressions? Photos would be great !!!

There is one caveat, though: The weather forecast qualifies as “winter storm” for this winter-fragle part of south Texas. That’s what I have heard several people call this forecast!

As of right now (weather in Texas is famous for sudden change): Saturday temps 33-49F and windy, Sunday temps 35-57F and light breeze. But sunny! The days before are even colder, with cold rain forecast for Thursday-Friday. (Here, the lowest temperature happens early morning, not overnight.)

I know, above Oklahoma, people break out the shorts and t-shirts if it warms up to 45F mid-winter. Currently we are having typical January weather with mid-day temps in the 60’s. Best month of the year. If the temp plummets to the mid-50’s, we start re-considering being outdoors at all. (I lived in CO for 11 years and realize how laughable this is.)

The Houston area rarely has a freeze. The locals quail at anything below 45F. A true freeze with ice on the roads can shut down the city. A great many lifetimers in this area honestly don’t own true winter clothing. They just hide indoors until it passes, which it quickly does. “If you don’t like the weather in Texas, just wait a couple of days, it’ll change.” Maybe the forecast will lighten up next week?

[Peggy]

@OverandOnward

Apparently the A shows are starting to take time jump-offs out of lower-level unrecognized classes?

Just first-round speed classes.

3. Jumper classes held below .90m that are restricted to Junior and/or Amateurs, must not be scored under Table II, Sec .1 (see JP 146.2) or Table III (see JP 148). Courses must not include combinations (see JP 127).

[Pennywell_Bay]

@Dr_Doolittle

Because Starter is now a recognized division and there are way more people “dipping their toes” in the eventing water, there are plenty of unqualified “coaches” who have no idea of the rules of eventing, and who don’t work with their students on basics and fundamentals - just instruct them to “get around the courses” any which (sometimes scary) way - and make the time! It would be wonderful to have classes that are actually judged on how well the rider and horse complete the course, not just how fast they gallop through the finish flags

I don’t think recognized starter has anything to do with the above. Honestly, it is way scarier watching lower level jumpers in classes that don’t have optimal time. If that’s what you are seeing in YOUR area, it is unfortunate. It is not reflective of what we are seeing in IN, KY, TN, OH- even at our schooling series.

[enjoytheride]

@Dr_Doolittle

Because Starter is now a recognized division and there are way more people “dipping their toes” in the eventing water, there are plenty of unqualified “coaches” who have no idea of the rules of eventing, and who don’t work with their students on basics and fundamentals - just instruct them to “get around the courses” any which (sometimes scary) way - and make the time! It would be wonderful to have classes that are actually judged on how well the rider and horse complete the course, not just how fast they gallop through the finish flags

2024 was the first year Starter was recognized, and I really doubt there was this massive change the first year. Or that Starter is to blame at all.

[enjoytheride]

@OverandOnward

They like the ideas and the horsemanship-centered approach of the UDJC. Both especially agree that timed-jump-offs for very-low jumper classes are inappropriate, and neither allows their students to do those. Apparently the A shows are starting to take time jump-offs out of lower-level unrecognized classes? Not sure about this but it was mentioned. Also, while they don’t appreciate the negative aspersions from UDJC on recognized shows, they aren’t taking those remarks personally, at this point.

If you’re talking about Optimum time classes, yes they’ve been around for awhile now.

[Dr_Doolittle]

Starter has existed for awhile, and has been offered at both Recognized and Starter trials - so no, there hasn’t been a “massive change”, but making such a low level recognized has drawn more folks into it who came from another discipline and want to be “competitive.”

It just became recognized last year, but people had entered it previously (I’ve had a few students with backgrounds in the Hunters who did a couple of starters with green horses before “moving up” to BN), it can be a very helpful introductory level for horses and riders new to the sport.

The problem (as I’ve encountered it) is when low level local hunter trainers bring their students and enter that division without knowing the rules of eventing. Even though the questions (and the dressage test) are very simple and the jumps are low, riders still need to follow the rules of eventing. It’s not a jumper show, and coaches can’t “assist from the sidelines” and coach riders while they are on the cross country course. Of course the jumps are speed bumps for the most part, but riders still need to learn not only the rules, but how to navigate terrain and go at an appropriate speed - both in x-country and SJ.

But some riders (not all, of course - some of the riders are at least working with coaches who specialize in introducing riders and horses to eventing and teaching the fundamentals: safely, appropriate pace, knowing the rules, etc.), just bomb around the courses and treat it like a “local jumper show” where turning and burning is rewarded with a ribbon at 2’3".

That isn’t eventing.

Obviously experiences vary. And yes - local jumper schooling shows are WAY scary - the lower the jumps, the scarier the rides!

[IPEsq]

Of course people with a full schedule going after points and qualifying with USEF divisions are not the target consumer for this series. You want to get a horse or rider some mileage with that program doing unrecognized divisions? You are doing that at rated shows where the rest of the clients or their more advanced horses are targeting rated classes.

Same thing happened with the initial WEC vs HITS battle. Those who needed to show towards qualifying went to HITS.

[enjoytheride]

I hate to break it to you, but a lot of the people “bombing around” horse trials I see are eventers.

Bombing around isn’t limited to hunter jumper riders.

[Dr_Doolittle]

I don’t disagree.

My students don’t do that because I train and prepare them carefully and methodically at home and during schoolings. Warm-up is for tuning up, working on adjustability, getting a few jumps under your horse’s belt and preparing to go into the competition ring - but I do see a good bit of chaotic riding!

My sensitive mares have always been very reactive to “atmosphere” in SJ warm up; when I’m in a division full of pros who are generally calm and know how to warm up methodically, they have no issues – when I’m in warm-up with more inexperienced riders, ammies and kids who are nervous, they tend to gallop around and around and jump 20 fences while their trainers scream “go more forward!”

When my horses sense that atmosphere they become emotionally overwrought, and I wind up having to circle them at walk in a corner of the warm-up ring away from “the fray” until they calm down enough to enable me to get some jumps in before I go into the competition ring.

So yeah, agree.

Many people are nervous at competitions, but it really comes down to coaching and preparation. If you are so nervous that you feel that you have to gallop around the warmup ring 10 to 20 times and jump numerous fences while chasing your horse to long, flat distances, it’s time to do more homework, do more schooling (and low-key schooling shows), and work on these things at home. Just my $0.2.