[QUOTE=bugsynskeeter;7391466]
How is that any different with non-clones? . . . that comment just struck me as odd.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, beat me to it! Guess I should’ve read more before replying. 
Welcome! I’m fascinated by these clones!
I heard recently that Mary had said they never had any intention to compete their clone as he wasn’t created to be a competition horse & they didn’t want to do anything to infringe on Gem Twist’s memory.
Hmmm, he may be a clone of gem twist, however that is no guarantee that he will be the same horse. Cloning just guarantees DNA it doesn’t guarantee the exact same product will be produced. In the right hands, (ie the Chapots) he could turn out to be just as nice or perhaps even nicer. With someone else, he could never reach his potential. It would be the same as with Gem Twist at stud - or any other stallion for that matter. Results would be dependent on the same things, person training it, riding it, the mare’s quality and her DNA. You may get one that adores jumping, you may get another that just doesn’t cut it. Never know. Perhaps he is not showing the same apptitude as his clone and they don’t want to have something out there that is essentially “gem twist” being sub par.
[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7395324]
Perhaps he is not showing the same apptitude as his clone and they don’t want to have something out there that is essentially “gem twist” being sub par.[/QUOTE]
If you read the post above yours, you would see that there is no reason to speculate as to why the clone will not compete.
[QUOTE=Kinsella;7395160]
I heard recently that Mary had said they never had any intention to compete their clone as he wasn’t created to be a competition horse & they didn’t want to do anything to infringe on Gem Twist’s memory.[/QUOTE]
i read the same thing, I think it was an article in PH a couple of years ago. He was not meant to be a competition horse, they just wanted the chance to continue breeding that line. I can remember the Chapots doing some breeding since the 1960s so it made sense to me.
It has never been intended to produce the same horse in terms of performance. The majority of these have been cloned for breeding - use the DNA. Sure, some of them are performing - the first cloned mules went on to race. I haven’t looked enough to see how competing clones are doing compared to their originals
In the right hands, (ie the Chapots) he could turn out to be just as nice or perhaps even nicer. With someone else, he could never reach his potential.
The same goes for any horse out there. But even in the same hands, many people might be doing things a bit differently now than they did 10/20 years ago, so even then, it’s not actually the “same” people - usually it’s improved people. Feeding has improved too, even from just as relatively recently as GT was around
It would be the same as with Gem Twist at stud - or any other stallion for that matter. Results would be dependent on the same things, person training it, riding it, the mare’s quality and her DNA. You may get one that adores jumping, you may get another that just doesn’t cut it. Never know. Perhaps he is not showing the same apptitude as his clone and they don’t want to have something out there that is essentially “gem twist” being sub par.
As said several times in this thread, Gemini has never been aimed at the show ring, just as preserving the Twist line of DNA.
Breed or don’t breed but he IS Gem Twist genetically AND a TB stallion. Any “issues” will be those of the offspring just the same as any other breeding. It is up to you to make your vision for the breeding come true. Should Gem Twist have been a stallion…we will find out. Hopefully he will have enough offspring and will take this discussion to the next level. His problems will likely be those of any modern TB stallion being used for jumper breeding…too few offspring to really know his potential…silly supposition without basis in fact…and fear of science people don’t understand. The reason this line has been successful is because the Chapots walk the talk and have produced the horses they believe in to the best of their significant ability. More power to them. I have an Irish Draught mare I would love to be able to afford to bred to him…the foal would be something else. But the accomplishments of the foal would be up to its trainers and riders like any other young horse with the intent to produce something special. I would bet on the Chapots to succeed. PatO
[QUOTE=tinah;7391406]
For now. What about in 5 generations?[/QUOTE]
Given the technology of cloning, what exactly are you worried about with breeding clones and 5 generations down the road? What exactly do you think could happen?
[QUOTE=Kinsella;7395160]
they never had any intention to compete their clone[/QUOTE]
“Never” doesn’t seem to be accurate… shortly after Gemini was born, several sources reported Frank saying that Gemini could realize both his dreams of 1) propagating the Bonne Nuit line as well as 2) creating an Olympic-caliber horse as his gift to Laura.
Here’s one such example below:
http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index.ssf/2009/05/can_gemini_duplicate_gem_twist.html
Apparently, they changed their minds.
Would be interesting to know the exact reason why (we can only speculate, no matter how obvious it may seem), but I doubt that’ll ever be made public.
Gem Twist was my first “celebrity” love. I was just getting really into horses around 1993-1994ish I guess…and I think I saw a photo spread about him in a magazine and I fell in love. I had his picture up on my wall <3 I had no idea he had been cloned.
[QUOTE=ImmortalSynn;7396683]
“Never” doesn’t seem to be accurate… shortly after Gemini was born, several sources reported Frank saying that Gemini could realize both his dreams of 1) propagating the Bonne Nuit line as well as 2) creating an Olympic-caliber horse as his gift to Laura.
Here’s one such example below:
http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index.ssf/2009/05/can_gemini_duplicate_gem_twist.html
Apparently, they changed their minds.
Would be interesting to know the exact reason why (we can only speculate, no matter how obvious it may seem), but I doubt that’ll ever be made public.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think the article means he thought the clone would be the next olympic mount…as much as they wanted the lines for breeding purposes to PRODUCE that sort of mount. I would suspect they have crossed him on some WB mares and it is that offspring that they will be hoping to be the competition horses.
There was a reason why Gem was gelded…having a performance stallion has it’s own issues. Gem didn’t have to deal with those hormons while competing! If the colt could…great…but if all he does is produce some wonderful offspring, then that is the more important factor.
[QUOTE=J-Lu;7396541]
Given the technology of cloning, what exactly are you worried about with breeding clones and 5 generations down the road? What exactly do you think could happen?[/QUOTE]
There is only so far we can manipulate nature. Thalidomide was a perfectly harmless way to spare women from morning sickness.
I just think we should tread very. Carefully when playing god.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7397780]
I don’t think the article means he thought the clone would be the next olympic mount…as much as they wanted the lines for breeding purposes to PRODUCE that sort of mount. I would suspect they have crossed him on some WB mares and it is that offspring that they will be hoping to be the competition horses.[/QUOTE]
This was my take on the article as well, especially since I think it was around the time the article came out, there were questions as to whether clones would even be allowed to compete at the international level. I have no idea what is the status of that at this time.
Sure, it will be some time before the clone has offspring that are old enough to even attempt to compete at the top levels of the sport, but Laura is young and certainly has time for the whole “wait and see” game.
[QUOTE=tinah;7397805]
There is only so far we can manipulate nature. Thalidomide was a perfectly harmless way to spare women from morning sickness.
I just think we should tread very. Carefully when playing god.[/QUOTE]
There’s a big difference between cloning and taking a prescribed medication that had unrealized teratogenic effects.
You’ve been eating cloned produce probably the majority of your life and have never realized it. Which is why I kind of don’t understand why the anti-GMO foods movement has come about so recently… the principles haven’t changed, just the technology…
Is Gemini still in France (according the the post with the picture). Or did I misunderstand? Why is he in France? I’m curious to see how he grows up. He is cute. 
[QUOTE=ynl063w;7397959]
there were questions as to whether clones would even be allowed to compete at the international level. I have no idea what is the status of that at this time.[/QUOTE]
The FEI lifted all restrictions on clones competing on June 9, 2012… reversing its 2007 decision.
They can now compete in any class for which they are otherwise eligible.
[QUOTE=pintopiaffe;4237846]
I dunno… me? I’m not going to question Frank Chapot’s management… :uhoh:[/QUOTE]
Better yet say it to Frank.
[QUOTE=tinah;7397805]
There is only so far we can manipulate nature. Thalidomide was a perfectly harmless way to spare women from morning sickness.
I just think we should tread very. Carefully when playing god.[/QUOTE]
It wasn’t really ever supposed to be perfectly harmless. That was before the days of drug testing and the manufacturer of the drug touted it as a miracle cure for basically everything. At the time, science as a whole barely understood that alcohol could cross the placental barrier to a fetus, never mind that medication could. It’s just not a good example of “playing God” when there are many other drugs and manipulations that arguably do exactly that.
I don’t think they’re lunging him to exercise him at great lengths. Frank is probably putting him lightly on the lunge line to get some ground work under his belt and working on manners.
I believe he would be 6 now? any offspring?
