Exactly why I assumed he wasn’t approved for breeding. I’m not familiar with AES. Like warmblood registries, is registered different from approved for breeding? I’m not planning to breed a horse now or in the future, so I don’t want to bother/annoy AES/SBS/Chapot. I’m just wondering out of curiosity. 
[QUOTE=Spectrum;6157896]
As I was watching the video in the original post, I considered the same thing. What would make this horse more popular than the popular warmblood lines?
The answer, I think, lies in that video! When I watched it, I asked myself why he was different from your average warmblood GP horse today, and what made him the ridiculously successful jumper he was in his day.
Gem Twist had an absolutely AMAZING economy of jump that you don’t often see in the “freaky” warmblood jumpers today. In that video, you see him clearly and consistently jump over every fence with almost the same exact amount of clearance over every fence (maybe 6-9"?).
There was one jump where he was a tiny bit long and you see him extend his forelegs forward/up minutely to adjust and stay clean over the jump, adjusting in mid-air. He simply lifted all his legs up a tad to give himself the clearance he needed.
To see a horse navigate so calmly, efficiently and consistently over a course is a true thing of beauty. That’s just plain talent.
I used to watch GP after GP growing up, and at my first eventing clinic with Jim Graham he asked me what my goal was. I piped up, “I want to be a Grand Prix jumper rider!” Alas, there were not instructors of that type in my area to be had.
I am not a showjumper and only rarely sit down to watch a Grand Prix these days, but in the few I’ve watched online or on ESPN recently (or videos of the WEG, etc) I just haven’t seen that kind of consistent, clean technique. I’ve seen some freaky-talented jumpers that clear some fences by multiple feet, and then the same horses will get a bad distance or misjudge and just drub through a fence later in the course.
So to answer your question, I think that is what Gemini Twist will have to offer that lots of warmbloods don’t have.[/QUOTE]
But will his clone be able to pass this quality on to his offspring?
THAT is what remains to be seen…
[QUOTE=vineyridge;6157452]
He’s not listed at the AES Studbook pages linked here:
http://www.angloeuropeanstudbook.info/studcards.htm
If you care, you might contact AES directly.[/QUOTE]
FWIW my stallion is approved AES and is not listed on any of the AES lists either. I am not sure how they work but maybe the ones listed are the “activated” ones. I have not “activated” my guy since there is not really a need to here in the US.
I contacted them a year or so ago to get a list of my guy’s registered AES offspring and I got back a very prompt helpful reply.
[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;6158182]
But will his clone be able to pass this quality on to his offspring?
THAT is what remains to be seen…[/QUOTE]
Given that horse’s pedigree…the chances are quite good that he will pass it on. He comes from long established lines of producing good jumping horses and he him self is lovely…even if he wasn’t a clone.
I knew Gem…and many of his relatives…it is exactly the TB lines and type that I want to cross on my mares. The FEI thing is the ONLY thing holding me back.
While I’d love them to be approved by some registries…in the end, I will give that up for the right cross as it is very hard to find full TBs that are approved with the lines and traits I want.
FWIW as to the AES registry, I have a mare in foal to Gemini due this summer, and I can assure you that he is registered with them.
[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;6158182]
But will his clone be able to pass this quality on to his offspring?
THAT is what remains to be seen…[/QUOTE]
Of course, that is the question that EVERY young, unproven stallion has to answer for himself.
However given that jumping ability and technique have been proven to be extremely heritable, it stands to reason that if the youngster did get the jumping gene (which we know he did, since he is A) a clone and B) already jumping paddock fences), he should be able to jump if trained by a competent professional (which he will be) and also pass on that gene.
So here’s a question for the masses! Assuming Gemini is indeed approved for breeding by “some registry” is there anyone out there who flat out would NOT breed to him even if he turns out to be a super star?
Registry doesn’t really matter much to me…no being able to have the offspring compete in the FEI is the deal killer. Too many other great proven stallions where this isn’t even a risk.
[QUOTE=Spectrum;6159101]
Of course, that is the question that EVERY young, unproven stallion has to answer for himself.
However given that jumping ability and technique have been proven to be extremely heritable, it stands to reason that if the youngster did get the jumping gene (which we know he did, since he is A) a clone and B) already jumping paddock fences), he should be able to jump if trained by a competent professional (which he will be) and also pass on that gene.
So here’s a question for the masses! Assuming Gemini is indeed approved for breeding by “some registry” is there anyone out there who flat out would NOT breed to him even if he turns out to be a super star?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t take the risk, especially at his current stud fee, until his offspring have proven that they can excel in the sport as it is today.
[QUOTE=Spectrum;6159101]
So here’s a question for the masses! Assuming Gemini is indeed approved for breeding by “some registry” is there anyone out there who flat out would NOT breed to him even if he turns out to be a super star?[/QUOTE]
People right here have already said never, if for no other reason than he’s a clone.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/anaconda20
I watched Anaconda compete for many years, first with Mary Chapot and later with Frank after the children were born. Every time she came into the ring she was referred to as “German bred” but no breed was ever mentioned and “warmblood” was not in the vocabulary then. Probably the only other warmblood competing in the US around that time was the great working hunter Isgilde. Not saying there weren’t any others that would now be considered warmbloods but they were few and far between and breed just didn’t seem to be mentioned.
…anyone know the date that Gem’s second clone (“Gem Twin”) was born?
I’ve been able to find so little about him-- further complicated by the fact that that was Gemini’s original nickname, before being given to the second one.
Now that the FEI will be allowing clones to compete, perhaps the Chapots are thinking that Gemini really might be Laura’s horse for the 2014 WEG and 2016 Rio Olympics. I know that in an early interview Mr. Chapot had mentioned that was one of their goals. If Gemini has the talent and needs to be gelded, that could easily be done now.
Thus, the second clone if such actually exists.
Update.
- Here is Gemini, jumping!
Currently under Steve Bostwick, in France.
- The second clone has been given the formal name “Murka’s Gem”
Its definite interesting to watch his progress… but I agree with others… breeding to a clone worries me a bit…
It would worry me as well. It is like when you make a copy of a copy. Doesn’t come out as nice and clear. Gets muddled. Plus you have the made in there as well. What kind of disaster could be produced if a clone was bred to a clone ? That is something to consider. I don’t believe that is a road I care to go down.
Clones have already been bred to clones - 2 famous bucking horse clones were bred to each other. Nice healthy foal 
[QUOTE=JB;7391245]
Clones have already been bred to clones - 2 famous bucking horse clones were bred to each other. Nice healthy foal ;)[/QUOTE]
For now. What about in 5 generations?
This is all quite interesting. Thanks for keeping us updated, ImmortalSynn!
[QUOTE=tinah;7391406]
For now. What about in 5 generations?[/QUOTE]
How is that any different with non-clones? HERDA and HYPP weren’t a concern several generations ago…
I am not an advocate of breeding to clones, but that comment just struck me as odd.
[QUOTE=tinah;7391406]
For now. What about in 5 generations?[/QUOTE]
That’s the risk you take with ANY long-term breeding.
To be honest, I’d say a lot of the inherent fear is based on supposition on what cloning actually 1) is, 2) does and 3) produces… as opposed to detailed familiarity.
Also, here’s something worth keeping in mind:
If “we” didn’t employ such an unnatural (but useful) technique as gelding, then we wouldn’t have a need for such an unnatural (but useful) technique as cloning.
