New Picture of Gem Twist's clone

I believe that scientists do not ‘empty out’ the donor mare egg. They extract the nucleus, I believe, and replace it with the stallion’s cell nucleus - which has his DNA. The donor mare oocyte already has all of the machinery in place to go through the process of going from one cell to an embryo and then a foal. If the nucleus was not “replaced”, the oocyte would be primed to start going through the motions of becoming an embryo and then a foal.

Yes, the foal would not have the stallion’s damline mitochondrial DNA, but there are so relatively few genes transcribed here that I would be very surprised if mitochondrial DNA contributed much to overall performance of the horse. Given the complexity of factors that contribute to the performance of a High Performance horse.

I agree that basically, breeding to Gemini Twist IS breeding to Gem Twist. Even if a person breeds to Gem Twist there is much that happens to gene expression patterns during every single cell division. The pattern of division and gene interaction/modification is a crap shoot and any uterine environment is also a factor. Breeding to a clone is breeding to his genes - which is what all breeders do. Of course there are other factors in the making of the horse and is why not even full siblings perform or look the same.

Laboratory animals such as mice are cloned quite frequently and can be indistinguishable, including their life span, from regular mice. Transgenic mice and “knock out”/“knock in” mice are created all the time. The technology is more advanced than some here might think.

It is true that there may be unseen factors when breeding to a cloned stallion. No one will know until it happens in large enough numbers. But there is really nothing predicted in the ACTUAL BIOLOGY that predicts that babies derived from clones will be significantly different from babies derived from AI or live cover. Lets not forget that lots of problems happen with regular pregnancies, too.

[QUOTE=Arathita;4239611]
Yes, the foal would not have the stallion’s damline mitochondrial DNA, but there are so relatively few genes transcribed here that I would be very surprised if mitochondrial DNA contributed much to overall performance of the horse. [/QUOTE]
True, but in terms of breeding, it doesn’t really matter-- as no one breeding to the original Gem, if that were possible, would’ve received his damline’s mitochondrial DNA anyway.

This kind of discussion goes exactly the same way around the world when sport horse breeders talks about cloning.

I know that Frank Chapot isn’t a beginner and he knows that is very difficult to have a stallion perform his best in the ring and breed a lot of mares at the same time, I hope Gemini will freeze well and semen will be available in Europe.
I for one will be thrilled to own a Gemini’s foal .

When you look at WB pedigree today you find that TB are moving further back, that could be reversed if Gem/Gemini is able to produce high performance offspring. Breeders are all looking to increase “blood” and TB is the best way to have this “blood”.

Thank you Mr Chapot for giving us the opportunity to breed to the best TB in our sport’s history.

I wish there were more information out there about how Gemini was created. The Chapots owned Gem Twist’s dam, who had a 1990 mare named Latest News by Good News Joe, a son of Good Twist. They are shown as her breeder. There was also a full sister named Cool Twist who was a 1976 model that I believe the Chapots also owned. She is shown with her last foal being Knock Wood" by Olisco and a full TB daughter named Belle’s Best. She also had a full sister to Knock Wood who is named Journalistic Gem.

If they used one of those mare’s eggs and/or used them as the recipient mare, wouldn’t that be as close as possible for the clone to be identical to the clonee?

Viney - yes, using one of those mares descending from GT’s dam would be the same MtDNA and assorted gook.

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;4239671]
Thank you Mr Chapot for giving us the opportunity to breed to the best TB in our sport’s history.[/QUOTE]
Well said.

On a less technical note, jumping ability is much more hereditary than dressage ability - so this is very exciting from a jumper perspective, and probably has a higher chance of success than if someone tried to clone the late, great Gifted for example. I’d breed to Gemini in a heartbeat but would hesitate a bit more if I was breeding for dressage horses…

…I quiver/cringe at the thought of what his stud fee would be like!

Wish I could see the result of Gemini x Ratina Z, or Gemini x Hidden Creek’s Laurel.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;4240263]
I wish there were more information out there about how Gemini was created. The Chapots owned Gem Twist’s dam, who had a 1990 mare named Latest News by Good News Joe, a son of Good Twist. They are shown as her breeder. There was also a full sister named Cool Twist who was a 1976 model that I believe the Chapots also owned. She is shown with her last foal being Knock Wood" by Olisco and a full TB daughter named Belle’s Best. She also had a full sister to Knock Wood who is named Journalistic Gem.

If they used one of those mare’s eggs and/or used them as the recipient mare, wouldn’t that be as close as possible for the clone to be identical to the clonee?[/QUOTE]

The Chapots did own Cool Twist, but sold her as a fairly young horse (about 5 or 6, as I recall) to a junior who rode with my trainer. C.T. was shown on the A circuit in the small junior hunters and Medal/Maclay, and ultimately was retired to broodmare duties. She was a very pretty dapple gray with a white mane and tail, a very good jumper and lovely mover (could get a piece of the hack in top company). She was a bit of a difficult ride, but the junior who rode her was very talented and they were a good team.

Edited to add: The below are C.T.'s offspring:
1994 - Gris et Rouge, colt by Olisco
1996 - Invitational, a colt
1997 - Journalistic Gem, a filly by Olisco
1998 - Knock Wood, a colt by Olisco

How old is Hidden Creek’s Laurel? Wasn’t she that beautiful mare that Margie Engle rode?

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;4250781]
How old is Hidden Creek’s Laurel? Wasn’t she that beautiful mare that Margie Engle rode?[/QUOTE]
The first (and I’d argue, the most brilliant) of the Hidden Creek legacy for Margie… she’d be 21 now.

But I’ll let Laurel “speak” for herself… watch this round-- the first clear in the largest grand prix ever (which was won by Gem Twist). Look how smoothly this 8yr-old made it look, when more than 30 seasoned horses before her failed to negotiate it cleanly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnLSOdkek5k

Both Journalistic Gem and Knock Wood have shown up through 1.35M. One of them has done a GP, don’t remember which one. Both owned by Newsprint Farms.

[QUOTE=PineTreeFarm;4250986]
Both Journalistic Gem and Knock Wood have shown up through 1.35M. One of them has done a GP, don’t remember which one. Both owned by Newsprint Farms.[/QUOTE]

Yes : ). Invitational has done (and won, I believe) a 30K Grand Prix. Knock Wood just got a ribbon recently at Upperville in a jumper class. I think Invitational is by Olisco (owned by Newsprint Farm) also, but am not sure.

Thanks for posting the video. :slight_smile: I always loved that mare.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;4251311]
Thanks for posting the video. :slight_smile: [/QUOTE]
Welcome.

As have I… alongside Gem, LaCosta, Mont Cenis and Loro Piana Tomboy, she’s easily one of my favorite showjumpers of all time. Definitely my top mare.

Will be making/posting more vids of her in the future as well :wink:

well, I couldn’t care less if Gemini is a clone–he’s still a cutie!

[QUOTE=InstigatorKate;4238045]
I love the name! Gemini is the Astrological Sign of Twins. Nice play on words![/QUOTE]

Very cool name!! Cool to begin with, Like you say, astrological sign of twins, incorporates the name of the original, and I like the way it sounds phonetically almost like “Gem and I Twist”…a little bit of both :smiley:

And he gives great hugs too! (If you can catch him!)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1703533&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=601296926&id=500809826&__a=1

[QUOTE=VarsityHero4;4252825]
And he gives great hugs too! (If you can catch him!)[/QUOTE]
…out of curiosity, how would you know that?

I have not kept up with the science of cloning but didn’t Dolly the sheep die young? Do they know why? I skimmed through the middle of this so pls excuse me if it was explained and I missed it