New puppy - how are we doing? Pupdate post #17

[Mara]

We picked up a 9.5 week old English Cocker puppy this week. She is of course adorable and sweet and perfect. Would like some expert feedback on how we’re managing.

We’ve kept her feeding schedule the same as what she had with her breeder: breakfast is her biggest meal, then “lunch” is whatever she didn’t eat in the morning (kibble). If she eats all of her breakfast in the am she will get extra for lunch - so far she’s left about 1/3 both mornings. Dinner is early evening and it is the smallest meal; she will not get anything after that. Water available all day but it is picked up a couple of hours before bedtime. The first night she asked to go out one time for a pee; last night she slept through. Clean crate both mornings.

She spends her indoor time in an x-pen set up in the kitchen, with toys. I’ve relocated my work base of operations for a few days so she always has eyes on her ready to get her out when she needs to potty. Yes, she demands attention, which she gets as a reward when she is calm. Music seems to chill her out some. Also we/I talk to her a lot, and both of us stop to greet her when we enter the room.

Biting/mouthing people and clothing is discouraged with redirection to a toy or a chewie. In addition to bathroom trips she is getting play time in the front yard. It’s not fenced, and in a week or two she will be able to outrun us, so I’m purchasing another larger x-pen for the backyard. Back yard is fenced, and the older dogs use a dog door, but right now is not the time for free interaction with the puppy.

Which brings me to the next issue. We’re not forcing interaction on the older dogs - both are also English Cockers, one 10 spayed girl and one 12.5 intact male (he will have his testosterone factory removed within the month when he gets his teeth done). Zoe, the female, is either scared of the pup or just very wary of her, not sure which. She is interested but will not come very close. Chelly, the male, is very interested but I suspect he will not have a ton of tolerance for puppy antics.

I was on the floor yesterday evening, next to the pen, scratching Chel’s ears with one hand while I played with the puppy. Puppy toppled over at one point, banging into the side of the x-pen and into Chelly. He snapped and growled at her; I didn’t yell at him, just took him calmly out of the room. He is allowed to set boundaries and if he doesn’t want to be a chew toy or a jungle gym that is his right, but for now I am more comfortable with a barrier between them. He is not the most playful of dogs, having been a kennel dog for most of his life. It took him a long time, 7-8 months, to become fully comfortable with Zoe and my POV is okay, time is something we have plenty of. Household dynamics are askew at the moment and we are trying to balance puppy demands with keeping the other two on their normal schedules. They are getting extra walks, however.

SO is less tolerant of dogs fussing or snapping at each other and tends to overreact (he doesn’t hit - no one does - but he does yell); he was ready several times to send Chelly back to his breeder/former owner in the first few months we had him. Now things are perfect with the two adults.

[endlessclimb]

Sounds like you’re doing a great job managing.

Is there any reason puppy can’t have her own time in the back yard, so you don’t have to have a huge x pen? Lock the older dogs up for an hour so puppy can blow off all that steam without having to have eagle eyes on her all the time.

It took our middle vizsla almost a year to actually enjoy the younger one. Lots of snapping and growling for that first year, which ended with both dogs losing privileges for an hour or two (snaps were often over couch position, always from the older dog to the younger one. If you can’t get along, no one gets the couch). My middle aged mutt loved the puppy from day one, and they are still fast friends.

[Mara]

Thank you, yes, that is an idea. We can just shut the dog door. Or have SO take her out there when I am walking the other two.

SO has never been a dog walker, lol. That’s going to change, and he knows it - I told him that when we were deciding whether or not to get a puppy. (Backstory - a puppy was not on our radar. But the breeder is the same one responsible for Zoe, and this puppy is from a half-sister to Zoe, so when she asked if we wanted her, well…). Unless I manage to grow a third arm between now and when the puppy is ready for leash walks in the neighborhood and longer, he’s going to have to tag along!

One thing I mean to do when I am out this afternoon is pick up some high-value treats that will be used to reinforce the idea that the puppy’s presence is a Good Thing.

[endlessclimb]

Walks with all 3 will help build a pack mentality, and have them be around each other on neutral ground always helps! Everyone, go together!

Also… pictures!!!

[Mara]

I need to get more pictures but I keep forgetting to take the phone with me when we go outside! Hopefully the video works.
IMG_0054|video

[luvmyhackney]

Sounds like ya’ll are doing amazing.

Those puppy pics are absolutely precious!!!

[S1969]

Sounds like it’s all going well.

Unless you’re afraid the adults will actually bite, I would definitely “force” some supervised interaction. They need to establish acceptable behavior and it can be easier when the puppy is small. Of course you want to intervene if the puppy is a nightmare or too bitey, or if the older dogs are too strict. But the best way to establish pack pecking order is usually to let them establish it themselves.

My youngest it 2 now and my older guy gave him one strong correction when he was about 9 weeks old and they have been perfectly clear of their relationship ever since and very comfortable of each other - but controlled. The puppy turned his wild a-hole personality on the middle dog who tolerated his idiocy. But now he still has to try to tolerate it and the puppy is as big as he is. I wish he had set a stricter standard but at this point I can only blame him for allowing nonsense wrestling etc. I’m really glad my old guy drew a line in the sand early - because now he’s 14 and too old to have to deal with puppy antics.

Every pack is different but you can’t make the rules for them. With luck you won’t have to intervene too much and they will sort it out.

Our x-pen days were fewer than a week before the puppy learned to climb out. So I would definitely start working toward combined pack experiences before that happens.

[Mango20]

What you’re doing sounds good, but I agree not to wait to try to integrate the puppy with the other two. When I got my last puppy, it took about 3 weeks for my older dog to get used to the idea. She never growled or snapped, but was clearly uncomfortable at first, like “why is this puppy here and is her mother going to show up and kick my ass for being near it?” After a few days, she seemed less concerned about it but still avoidant. After a couple of weeks everything was fine.

I also agree that pack walks are a great way to help ease the transition. Even though the puppy can’t go very far yet, leash them all up and go for a walk together.

[Mara]

We had some limited interactions this morning. Chelly is good as long as puppy is in my lap; we were sitting on the floor, and I handed him a little disc of string cheese here and there as a reward for being close to the puppy and allowing her to sniff him from the safety of my lap.

When she’s moving around under her own steam, he doesn’t care much for that at all. She tried to go underneath him to sniff, and he snarled and pinned her down, growling the whole time. No attempt to bite, but he was a little bit rough for comfort. I lifted him off of her (again, not yelling or scolding, just very matter of fact), picked her up, and we all went back in the house.

Should I scold him for being rough with his discipline? Gut tells me no, he’s just being a dog and as long as he’s not biting or actively trying to injure her there’s no worry. But she is still very small; I’ll be more confident when she has just a bit more size. She is probably going to mature bigger than him, as this breeder uses field bloodlines quite a bit and they tend to be bigger than the cockers bred for the conformation ring.

Zoe is still afraid of her, which is a little surprising since up to now the only thing she’s ever been scared of is the floor registers in the house. I can put food on the floor right next to the puppy and she will not come over to eat it.

Puppy did get her first intro to the leash earlier today. I took the adults on a very long walk while SO started with the leash. She doesn’t much like it, as is typical of puppies, but they did go up to the corner and back. She is a smart little thing and will figure it out quickly.

[cilla1]

I don’t think you should discipline Chelly as fare as he’s not biting her. We got Runa when she was 8 weeks and our greyhound who was 10 yo often scolded her (she was a little monster!) but without biting. We let him do it (and he was the only one she was listening to). When he was really fed up with her antics he would go upstairs because she was not able to climb. He first nipped at her when she was about 7 months, big enough for being punished without any harm, but he never was over reacting, he was really level headed, so we just let them be dogs. She adored Max, and he loved her too, he played with her, let her sleep besides him, he just set boundaries when she was too much rambunctious

[S1969]

@Mara

Should I scold him for being rough with his discipline? Gut tells me no, he’s just being a dog and as long as he’s not biting or actively trying to injure her there’s no worry.

Well, I wouldn’t scold harshly, but pinning her down and snarling/growling is more than just a correction. So I would watch them, and maybe leash the male while the puppy is around so you can control him without having do discipline.

Puppies are hard, and the ages of your dogs means they have probably forgotten how annoying they can be. (My oldest is 14 and middle is 8, so he was a much younger dog when I got the middle puppy.) But - it is important that they learn that they have to tolerate the puppy. That doesn’t mean they have to like her.

So, having him on a leash and being able to do a “oh no no noo you” and restrain him while you extricate him from the puppy might be better than having to give a sharp correction if he pins the puppy down.

Of course you don’t have to force them to be together all the time yet - but some carefully supervised sessions where you’re setting the tone for expectations are worth doing. And then they can take a break from each other on the other side of a gate, for example.

[Mara]

Yeah, I kind of thought he was a bit too much with his response. A leash is a good idea. He’s fine if she’s on a lap, but when she’s down and moving around she naturally wants to check out these other two dogs, which makes him anxious. Bonus is that his show training taught him to behave around other dogs when he’s leashed; we’ve had loose dogs approach on our walks before, including one very friendly but hyperactive pit bull, and he just stands there.

Zoe’s had puppy company before - that dog ended up with the ex wife in the divorce, but Zoe was only two and that puppy was around 4 months old when they got her. Some dogs just don’t do puppies, at all. Chelly may be one of those, but you’re right, he has to learn to put up with her.

We just fed the adults a few minutes ago, and the puppy bounded up to Zoe wanting to check out her AND her food. Zoe’s correction was textbook perfect, just one firm loud growl telling her to “get the hell away from my food - MINE!”

[Mara]

We haven’t even had her a week and she’s easily grown another inch! I’ll post a pic or two later. Oh - we changed her name. “Mabel” got a lot of pushback from people complaining that it was an old lady name. So now she is Ziva.

She’s just starting into the growth phase where her feet look too big for her. And her face is looking more English Cocker - her snout is a bit more elongated. She will go into a big girl crate tonight, as she’s just about to outgrow the airline kennel she’s been sleeping in.

Older female still wants nothing to do with her, just runs away. Chelly is good when he’s leashed, or if she’s in someone’s lap, but he is going to need eyes on him ready to correct any rough behavior until she’s old enough/big enough to take care of herself. Puppy bounciness around his legs he does not like. His vision may be starting to go a little bit - but he can still catch a small treat in midair so who knows.

It is SO hard to not go pick her up when she’s screeching for attention!

[ELH_hj]

It sounds like you’re doing an awesome job! We have ECS too, though ours are working lines and it looks like you have show. Our gundog trainer and breeder both advised not to scold the older dog and to in fact serve as the protector of the older dog/ enforcer of rules for as long as they need to slowly come around to the puppy (and for the puppy to learn how to be calm & cool around the older one). That’s of course assuming the older dog isn’t being actively aggressive.

We kept our two in the same space, but separate for a long time. Took them on walks next to each other so we could control the calm and cool vibe, but didn’t really encourage them to play together, and they ended up being sister-friends.

[Mara]

She is a mix of working and conformation lines, as is our older girl, Zoe. Her dam is a half-sister to Zoe, in fact. That was the primary factor for us; we weren’t in the market for a puppy, but that breeder’s dogs and that family in particular have such fabulous temperaments and personalities.

She will be on the larger side, probably pretty close to the 15” limit for bitches; Zoe is a full inch taller at 16”. Whether she goes for conformation or field titles or both remains to be seen.

The dam has her CD title along with a couple of others. The breeder does hunt with hers as well as obedience and trick work.

[chestnutmarebeware]

I have a book on solving dog issues written by the Tufts vet school behaviorist and he addressed your issue.

His recommendation (besides not leaving the puppy unprotected when you’re not there to supervise) is to only treat the adult dogs when the puppy is present. That way they come to accept the pup as a good thing.

It sounds like you’re doing a great job with Mabel!

[Mara]

We’ve been letting Ziva out of the pen to explore the house under very close supervision. She’s mastered climbing stairs but not descending just yet; now when we come back inside after an outside play session she is encouraged to enter through the door under her own power (good because she’s starting to get a bit heavy!)

We have also started leash training. SO takes her while I have the other two, and that’s going well.

Regarding her canine siblings, Chelly seems to be adjusting remarkably well. Last night when we came back inside she darted down the hallway without paying attention to where she was going and bowled right into his front legs. He didn’t turn a hair, for which he got LOTS of praise. And after last night’s walk everyone was gathered at the “treat bar” and no one squabbled or fussed or acted territorial, so all got specially treated with string cheese, which I’ve sliced into little discs specifically to use as a high value reward.

Zoe is very slowly starting to come round. There have been some nose-to-nose moments, which get rewarded promptly. She still does not like Ziva running after her and will jump up on the bed or sofa to get away. Yesterday she did reprimand Ziva, whose crime was to run full tilt into Zoe’s personal space without asking permission when they were out in the yard. Zoe flipped her on her back with a sharp bark and a growl before letting her up and going back in the house.

New chew toys are on the way. I had forgotten that puppies are essentially mouths on legs - hers never stops moving! She’s beheaded every dandelion in the yard and last night when we were walking she was eyeing up the neighbors’ blooming tulips! I fear for my carpet fringe when she gets access to more of the house.

[MunchingonHay]

Glad to hear everyone is getting along quickly. Puppies are so much fun!

I picked up three of these, (one in each size) for my lab pup to entertain her a few months ago. Best money I ever spent. https://www.westpaw.com/products/toppl-treat-toy

May be Ziva would like it too.

[Mara]

Thanks! She still hasn’t figured out how to get the cookie piece out of her kong yet.

[candyappy]

@Mara

It is SO hard to not go pick her up when she’s screeching for attention!

I don’t think you can ever pick up a puppy too much?? They are only “pick-up-able” for so long and I have never had one be needy, demanding or have any bad consequences behavior wise by being loved when they needed it!

ETA: the only exception to this is if you put her to bed for the night. We don’t crate but my puppies are confined to a sleeping area beside my bed.

Ziva is precious and I would be loving on her constantly