And the results aren’t quite what you’d expect…
Interesting reading.
But what I really want to know is how you managed to link to an article on the Paulick Report and not have your post “unapproved”. :lol:
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Carl Raswan, the Arabian writer in the earlier 20th century, said that both the Darley Arabian and the Godolphin Barb had Turkoman crosses in their ancestries. that Turkoman stallions were crossed on the local “Arabian” mares, probably with Turkoman blood too.
But having been an Arabian fanatic for sixty years or so now I have absolutely no problems with the idea that the TB has little Arabian blood. TBs are obviously full of Turkoman and Barb blood, both hot blood breeds, and I see this in the TB general build, in the TB head and in TB intelligence and "friendliness (or lack thereof). I have owned Al Khamsa Arabians so I have handled more or less PURE Arabians, and I have owned a Paso Fino mare obviously descended from the Barb blooded horses the Spanish brought to the New World. I do not see much proof of Arab ancestry in the TB, none of the tell-tale signs of pyramid shaped skulls, mitbah, much less highly carried tails. I see plenty of evidence of Barb blood. I’ve never owned a Turkoman horse but they do not have the same type of build as a pure Arab, and I can see the build in the TB, a more elongated build compared to the more compact built Arabian.
So another pretty myth bites the dust. I love the clarity that genetic research can bring.
It also sort of explains why the Blunt’s experiment of breeding pure Arabians to the TBs failed, failed, failed at “saving” the TB breed, those Anglo-Arabs just were not fast enough to merit further breeding in the TB breed even if the Blunt Arabians were all registered in the General Stud Book along with the TBs (and Barbs and Turkoman horses.)
I have no doubt that the current racing Arabs have TB sire lines. It is the easiest way to breed a faster race horse after all.
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To play devil’s advocate – are not some of the traits that define the modern arabian, for a lack of a better word, modern?
I am not an arabian expert. My impression was that the breed underwent some transformation in the last 200 years. Has the exaggerated tail carriage and the strong dishing of the face always been so extreme?
The TB as a whole has lost a tremendous about of diversity in the last 100 years. I wonder if other lines of TBs (which are now sadly extinct) would have shown any significant arabian contribution? So interesting to see Whalebone in some racing Arabians – but not all that surprising, given his immense influence on the TB breed…
This raises more questions than answers for me. I wonder what type of TBs were used, I saw “a sample of 17” - German TBs? IRE? USA? The latter two are usually fairly similar, but the GER is a total offshoot IMHO…
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This study seems consistent with the articles Deb Bennett wrote for Equus a few years back about the development and ancestry of the modern TB horse. While I don’t subscribe to all her ideas I think she pretty thoroughly researched these articles and they make sense at least to me. I see more resemblance to the Barb and Turkish horse than to an Arabian.
And I would not be surprised if some TB stallions “jumped the fence” with regards to race breeding before DNA became prevalent.
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As the owner of a registered half Arab out of a “purebred” Arab racehorse, I want to know more about this “TB blood in racing Arabs.” I wish they would have hinted at the lines.
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The history of the TB is actually remarkably clear. The General Stud Book was first published in 1791 and it included information from many reliable sources i.e. the private stud books maintained by wealthy families breeding running horses, back into the 1600s. That is how the main taproot mares and TB ‘families’ were subsequently established through careful research. Some 200 stallions described as Arabs, Barbs,Turks and others were imported into England in the 1600s and 1700s to breed running horses. It was careful recording that made them “Thorough” bred.
The varied origin of these stallions used in breeding running horses is very clear in the names: Alcocks Arabian - from whom all grey TBs decend; Grovesnors Bloody Shouldered Arab; Darcy’s White Turk, a very influential stallion; Fairfax’s Morrocan Barb, the Devonshire Turk, the Devonshire Arab etc etc. The 3 widely recognised foundation stallions are the Darley Arabian, the Godolphin Arabian and the Byerley Turk, captured in1688 in Hungary in a battle against the Turks.
The General Stud Book, and those others maintained in all the countries to which the TB has travelled, are now an absolutely invaluable resource for veterinary research, particularly into genetics.
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Yes. But the point being made is that “Darley Arabian”, in spite of the name, was a Turkoman,not an Arabian.
However, analysis of Y chromosome haplotypes (genes inherited from a single parent) for the Darley Arabian found his lineage actually traces back to the extinct Turkoman horse,…
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The was a bit of skullduggery around the purchase of the Darley Arabian!
I’m as mystified as you are! I did not have high hopes and was stunned when it worked.
:lol:
Maybe you’ve made a breakthrough for us.
I am going to be heartbroken if King of the Wind is not 100% accurate!!
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:lol:
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Almost spit beer all over my phone!
Must go read the article, though I’m sure I’ve read about this great reveal a few years back.
Edited to say wasn’t it the Godolphin arabian that was decided to be a barb a few years ago?
Please do not tell me that Sham was not an Arabian. Seriously. Agba must be rolling over in his literary grave!!
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I think its an interesting read; but I take a kindness to reading up on DNA and genetic research. They’re not so much saying that the Darley Arabian did not exist; but that his lineage goes back to the extinct Turkoman horse. As with all breeds; they originated somewhere and this includes the Arabian and its very close relatives. Turkomans are the same blood as Arabians however, classified like a different “family” and a less regal one at that.
The two breeds did share many likenesses to eachother. However the Turkomen was longer with smaller shaped feet. The Turkoman ran with its tail straight out behind instead of more flagged like an Arabian and they were built to cover great distance for long periods of time. It’s easy to think that those who imported the horses just called them “Arabians” in a general classification or due to the wealth associated with the breed; the Arabian was the more regal one, and the europeans classified all fast and elegant middle eastern imports at the time to be “Arabs”. It was not that their ancestry was guaranteed. Registries did not exist back then like they do now nor were many breeds heavily bred specifically under as careful scrutiny like they are now. Breeds were constantly in development. It is known that Turkomans and Arabians were crossed near Baghdad in the 17th century and this is believed to have founded one of the prominent lines of Arabians.
But it is interesting that the Byerley Turk kept the “Turk” in his name and it’s easy to look at the thoroughbred and see where that influence came from. But it is fact that the Turk and the Arabian both share the same common ancestry; they were just bred differently by different groups of people for different uses.
What i wish that they went more in depth on is how they have located the Byerley Turk in the DNA sequencing to confirm he existed. Is his DNA sequenced somewhere and if so, how did they get it and/or absolutely confirm that it is him without a doubt. That is a far ways back to confirm a DNA sequence in a lineage. I do not know enough about the process to confirm it.
I do think it is a shame that the Turkoman horse was lost to extinction although I do bet that many still exist in rather “pure” form in the middle east if one were to go and DNA test
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If you have multiple male horses that are “tail male” to Byerley Turk, they will all have the same Y chromosome. It doe not matter how far back you go, the only differences will be actual mutations.
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Very interesting. It does explain why some of the genetic disorders found in arabians aren’t found in thoroughbreds. Especially if the disorders are inherited in a recessive manner. If the breeds were related and the genetic defects were not recently acquired, you would expect both breeds to have them.
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