Are you talking about this video?
Nice horse. if you watch the video at the end when the judge gives some pointers. You can see that the judge asked the rider to give a longer rein and the trot improved. Same with starting the canter on the circle coming out of the corner. I think the rider was just nervous being filmed at a clinic, hence the tension.
That’s so weird-I didn’t realize people could delete comments now. How is that possible?
I saw both posts before that one was deleted and before yours was edited.
Definitely amazing horse flesh and brilliant riding. No question about it.
I agree with all of the comments on here. It’s becoming blaringly obvious that better movers, obviously scoring better, will continue to have scores that are top notch and even over properly ridden and properly trained less fancy movers, for lack of a better term here. It’s the system.
Not a sour grapes, not a complaint, just an observation that if what we are really interested in is training, and I said this on many a Facebook page when we were discussing the freestyle scores, perhaps there needs to be a handicap. Perhaps we need to look at gaits and then not just look at raw scores but potential scores (gaits) to see what qualifies or not, especially if it’s a matter of moving up the levels needs qualifying scores.
In other words, if an eight mover is ridden poorly, and I am absolutely not saying that’s happening in these videos because the horses are ridden well, That ride is going to be a qualifying ride with a certain score.
If The seven or six mover is ridden the same, The scores will not be qualifying scores.
This is what I’m talking about. If we really care about the training of the horse, this is something we need to address.
Better movement should not make up for improper training.
Yes, there are so many things that can be said about fairness and rider shape and size and money and all those things. Casting all of that aside as noise, I’m just talking about the horse, if we really are making this qualifying score argument about proper training, we need to look at this.
I highly doubt it would have got 50%… Correct but less flashy would have got at least 60%, easily closer to 65.
I’ve scribed for Mrs Wysocki and she’s truly fair.
Also, this is a 4th level horse doing a 2d level test. So a 4th level « ordinary » horse with correct gaits and same selfcarriage wouldn’t have scored 50%. Please.
But comments of “too much neck bend, 7” and 12m circles getting 7s are just not reality to most of us.
Everything else was there. It was fluid, relaxed, regular… like you would expect from a 4th level rider doing lower level stuff.
You are looking from a 2d level rider point of view.
When someone starts (or work through) at a level, obviously, there are more than 1 mistake within each movements. So not only would there be « too much neck bend » but it would impede the rhythm, the angle, the engagement, etc.
The 3-3 ride was absolutely lovely, and horse was very nice - and I think overall her scores were lower despite being so much more correct and still on a pretty fancy horse.
This pair competed at 3rd level this year with scores above 65% up to 75%. So not yet at 4th but highly probably schooling most of it. Maybe that’s why it looks closer to the « ideal » of what riders should look like at 3rd.
I don’t think her scores were lower as she got quite a few 7.5 and 8s.
Interesting to see what all of us are up against when we show normal horses - especially since few of us ride as well as the demo riders, especially as we are learning to go up the levels.
Those riders were not learning these levels, they owned them.
When your scores are in the high 60%, it’s time to think about going up! 
Yes, that horse. I can certainly see tension through the body at times in the test, but the dark coloring and largely being backlit makes it difficult to see to what extent it persists, if it does. I’m asking if others can tell if it’s there or not, as I’ve mostly been on horses that look worse than they feel wrt tension and I suspect this may be an example of the opposite. I’m totally open to being told I’m wrong, just taking an opportunity to train my eye a bit if I can.
To me, this horse displayed quite a bit of tension, tail swishing, and was coming way behind the rein as evidenced by the riders hand being back by her thigh at the beginning of the ride.
If anything in this ride was over a 6, it was possibly the free walk, but the first canter circle should have been no higher than a 4 with multiple breaks of gait and the trot circles were inconsistent.
I didn’t watch it with the sound on but I was disappointed if this was supposed to be a demonstration of a good ride at the level.
I haven’t watched the videos, put did attend that symposium. Yes, the 2-3 horse was a lovely mover, but the clinician also made it a point to explain that the more “average” moving horse we saw at 2-2 could absolutely have beaten the 2-3 horse - had the test been more accurate and correctly ridden. Not sure if her commentary before/after each ride is included in the videos, but that was an IMMENSELY valuable part of the clinic.
I would have really liked to see how much different the scores would have been with…less fancy, I guess? horses and riders. Obviously these are beautiful horses and riders, but I really would have liked to see someone more in my shoes – adult ammy with limited talent and even more limited funds on an OTTB who, bless him, thinks he’s the next Valegro but is decidedly not. I am throwing around the idea of trying for my Bronze medal but knowing that I will likely never own a horse that could (relatively) easily get the scores is a bit discouraging.
I thought the judge’s comments were quite educational and yes, most of the videos include a good bit of commentary before and after each ride. They’re well worth watching. I would love to see more like these.
I’ve not watched the training and first level tests yet, but from what I’ve seen so far, I’m with Alibi.
Whilst it’s horses, so things will and did not go perfectly, these were not put up as “amateur learning the level” examples, but mostly of professionals who know the levels backwards and forwards and horses that have no issues doing the movements, so we could see how the tests ride.
If you want more perfect examples, you’ll have to wait for the “Through the levels” edited and vetted videos.
I found Kristi’s comments around the tests invaluable. Do remember, she is a very good representation of who will be judging you, so if you want those good scores, take what she says to heart.
She very clearly said that good training will trump good gaits when it comes down to it. And having ridden with her and watched her teach many times, I’d say that she actually does believe this.
Now if you have good training AND good gaits, well, you’ve got the ideal. Especially when you have this caliber of rider.
But, it’s horses and humans, so even then, stuff still doesn’t always go according to plan, as was shown in some of these videos.
She also was very clear about competing at the level below which you are training. It’s pretty obvious that most of us (including me) are guilty of ignoring this piece if advice and attempting to skate through with some pretty half-assed training on some elements of a test, rather than regarding it as a demonstration of excellence.
I think we amateurs do this partly because peer pressure, and partly because we probably have one horse at a time of limited lifespan and we are trying to cram as much learning and training and showing as we can into that time frame, and most of us AAs in this country are still going up the levels for the first time.
I wish I could ride like some of these riders. It’s great to see this quality in the USA. Oh, to be young and talented!
Not sure if it was all included, but there was commentary before and after each ride.
There was commentary about writing a comment such that she could let the rider know that she knew that the horse was up or whatever so that the rider held back. I’m sure that the score wouldn’t be affected either way as that would not be fair, but she said (paraphrasing) that she wants the rider to know that she understands why the horse is being conservatively ridden.
I wondered about that - I thought there were just supposed to be comments about what is seen at that moment - how can one tell if a horse is one who keeps it together externally but is getting ready to explode internally…how would one know that as a judge? I suppose it might be something not always seen, and I believe that would affect how she perceives the ride. (one horse outwardly misbehaving/acting spooky so conservatively ridden), and the other about to blow internally so conservatively ridden). I found that odd.
Watch the 1-3 test and tell me what you think. I think the horse is beautiful, the rider is great, and I think the horse is BTV much of the test.
To watch that and see scores of 7.5 and 8 is extremely disheartening. And this is first level.
Ok, watched it. You should watch it again with the commentary not the sound and watch and read all of the comments. I think for the ride she had it was pretty fair. She did get multiple comments about being short in the neck and was scored appropriately when that was the case. There were 4 moves and 8 moves–just what you want to see when you are taking a top quality young horse out for the first time in a test neither of them have experienced before–far more disturbing to see a page of 6’s.
I’ve got no problem with it. The rider handled the whole thing very sympathetically, no-one died, and the message was put across repeatedly that the horse is lovely but needs to get longer in the neck. I don’t know what else I would have been expected to see.
Thanks for watching and commenting. I hear what you’re saying; I think the scores were pretty high for a horse behind the vertical.
It’s just confusing when the push is now about correct riding and behind the vertical seems to appropriately be following quite out of vogue.
beautiful horse and rider!
I finally watched some more tests and many times the judge stated openly “the fancy gaits don’t get that many extra points” instead she pointed out that fancy horses are often also ridden by very good riders and the collective pair scores higher. I think that’s true but I also sort of felt it was a subtle comeback to the people who keep saying you can’t even get a 60 unless you’ve got Totilas underneath you, that it’s just not true at all.
Don’t know if you watched all the Q&A at the end of that particular ride. I loved the comment that Ms. Wysocki made about starting with her “wide angle” lens and then zooming in because if you don’t look at the whole picture and just zoom in on one thing your scores will be too low.
This really resonated with me because that’s what kept me from being a distinguished graduate of the L program. Out of the 10 people in my L class, only 4 were distinguished graduates even though we all passed. I’m pretty confident that the reason the other 6 of us weren’t is because our scores were too low. Judging is a lot harder than I thought it was.
When I went through the program, only 3 people passed with distinction (I was one, and I was the only AA to pass at all). I figure it is a huge deal to pass - you put a lot of time and effort into it, and it shows a commitment to the sport.
I agree, I think the hardest thing is to see the GOOD, and not just the bad. And especially bad things that affect the head, because the head is SO easy to see. That is why so many people do fixate on “behind the vertical”, and miss the swing in the back, the lift in the withers, the reach in the legs, the balance, the correct bend, the accuracy of the movement that can result in an 8 in the overall score. There are also degrees of BTV - and slight BTV is really not that much of an issue at the lower levels - while a very curled neck is a big deal.
So yes, many people will fixate on that one issue (BTV) and not realize all the good stuff going on. I totally agree with Kristi W on that comment, and I do think most judges have learned to do that.
I do think the 2-3 horse was quite over-scored. I watched the ride, and had that same thought - maybe not 50%, but from the very first movement -a halt that took a LONG time to develop, and then was not maintained for 1 second, forget 3 seconds - that halt would have earned a 4 or MAYBE a 5 in any show I’ve been to… The free walk - a 7 with no overstride at all (biggest components of that movement are overstride and stretch)? The lack of obedience with the many flying changes, the lack of correct angle. There were so many issues in that test, however I also understand that the rider is a colleague, a fellow judge, and in a Symposium setting, there needs to be a level of professional courtesy. This is not a clinic on how to judge, this is a clinic explaining the components of the new tests, and how to do well in the show ring. And I also suspect this rider may have been a last minute substitution for another horse/rider who had to drop out (illness, lameness, whatever, that is one of the joys of organizing these kind of events) - it isn’t often we’d see a GP horse who has been out of the show ring for a while show up as a 2nd level demo horse. So there is a degree of “understanding” to be had. If this was an actual competition, I would hope the scoring was a bit more realistic, but I can totally understand why it may have been a bit generous here.
Good reasons it may have been extra generous. I also know that the terrible canter work was because the horse was anticipating changes which weren’t happening which caused confusion. But it resulted in croup high for almost all canter work with bouncing behind which caused rhythm issues. Understandable in the circumsyances, just not wortho of the scores received if truly judging in a competition. My first second level test was similarly problematic, but we got straight 8s on all canter movements which went well and 7s on all trot movements which went well - this horse had canter problems in all canter work (again, understandable why) which is why I think 50-ish would have ended up more reasonable. My mare’s overall movement quality is nowhere near this horse’s trot, but her canter based on that specific ride is WAY nicer. I am more ok with the points given with your perspective on it, though, MOR, so thank you!
I loved the point she made in the 3-3 test when she said enough collection for the level means the exercises improve rather than harming or making no change to the gaits. I have never articulated it that way, but have always said not just schooling a higher level, but the have work should be easy for the have he level we show. Because my mare gets tension at shows, her gaits suffer at shows and I need to get her more miles, but the work is very, very easy for her at home, with me able to improve her gaits mid-movement before I show a level.
Meh, I stand by what I say. Just because I commented on BTV doesn’t mean I don’t see the good. It means that I commented on the BTV and that my understanding from watching Janet Foy’s and other judges’ commentary on other similar tests, etc., is that it is a big deal at any level.
Netg took on that second level test in this thread so I didn’t comment on it. I think it’s incorrect to assume that she gave the other rider any professional courtesy by upscoring. That suggests not so great things about the clinician.
I don’t see anyone saying BTV isn’t a fault; I think the point is that if the horse were not BTV the scores would have been even higher. I suspect they lost maybe .5 point because of it, but that’s just my somewhat educated guess.
Good point. So with this, an 8 for gaits horse ridden BTV through an entire test would STILL score higher than a 6.5 horse or even a 7 horse ridden properly, right? I’m exhausted so might not be thinking this through mathematically.
That is disheartening, I guess, for multiple reasons. Especially if the FS committee is concerned about proper riding.
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